Brawl - More or Less Balanced than Melee?

Minebuster · 03-24-2008, 02:39 PM

If you know how to use people they can be amazing, at least thats what I think.

LevesqueIsKing · 03-24-2008, 02:41 PM

That is not what we are debating here, sorry.

Lugia · 03-24-2008, 02:43 PM

i think you need a fresher source. those posts were made before the english game was even out.

LevesqueIsKing · 03-24-2008, 02:46 PM

Why does it matter if its the English game or not? As I already stated, the basis of the posts were made after 3 days of detailed study of the game, and they're continueing to be edited as new techniques are found.

Quote:

Note: These are my impressions after long hours of play. I didn't play at a friend's house, I didn't play a demo for 20 minutes over three days. I've 80 hours logged by my crew and myself (Gameclock time) at 9pm Feb 4th.

Dorkfish · 03-24-2008, 02:55 PM

This happens in every game that has a competetive multiplayer community and includes many different types of characters. MMOs (WoW specifically), other fighters, even a few shooters out there have unbalanced gameplay thanks to certain characters being better than others. Its nothing new to see unbalenced gameplay in games.

I think that Brawl is as unbalanced as Melee, it just has more characters to fill the tiers.

Lugia · 03-24-2008, 02:57 PM

he said impressions. maybe these guys just plain sucked balls with yoshi and i sure wouldnt expect them to be all that great with any of the 35 chars when asked on the spot.

oh yea...id like to know when hes spent 80 hours on EVERY SINGLE CHAR.

LevesqueIsKing · 03-24-2008, 03:03 PM

You're going to find something wrong with it if thats what you're looking for. You're convincing yourself rather than looking at the evidence with an open mind.

Don't worry, I disagreed with them once as well. But as I continued playing I realized that this is by far the most in-depth response I've ever seen, and it is exactly right. And don't try to diminish facts, it was a team of people, not some kid that mains Fox and hates Yoshi's guts.

I don't even know why I'm having this debate, I'm done with the tier list thing, you can believe whatever you want.

Dorkfish · 03-24-2008, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LevesqueIsKing

You're going to find something wrong with it if thats what you're looking for. You're convincing yourself rather than looking at the evidence with an open mind.

Don't worry, I disagreed with them once as well. But as I continued playing I realized that this is by far the most in-depth response I've ever seen, and it is exactly right. And don't try to diminish facts, it was a team of people, not some kid that mains Fox and hates Yoshi's guts.

I don't even know why I'm having this debate, I'm done with the tier list thing, you can believe whatever you want.

Who???

mykennedy · 03-24-2008, 03:10 PM

whoa. are you guys talking about a game? or analyzing a piece of literature? im sorry. giving a score to how powerful a character is in a video game is absolutely ridiculous. it isnt at all about all of the characters being balanced or unbalanced. its all about personal preference. i mean really. it seems like the way you want the game is for all of the characters to execute the exact same moves with the exact same amount of strength. but that would make for a boring game. the fact that the characters do have different moves is ALWAYS going to illicit the debate of which is better than which, when it doesnt necessarily exist. i can GUARANTEE that as the game is being developed the creators arent thinking of making one guy better than another. they see a character. develop a move set. and leave it at that. as long as theres differences in games. there will be debate over what is the best way to play. and the answer to that question is however you see fit. so quit crying about a VIDEO GAME. and do like i do. pick random at the character select screen. and have fun. its what the game was made for. not for people to analyze it. for people to have fun

mushroomedmario · 03-24-2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LevesqueIsKing

Marioman & Wii-Fi

No offence, but I didn't bother watching the videos. No one here has said that a Yoshi can't beat a top tier, but that it is harder than it should be, which is unfair.

Yoshi was significantly hurt by the removal of many advanced technique's in Brawl, he still has no significant recovery, and his double jump has been heavily nerfed. Here are some character ratings from SmashBoards from a reliable source, whom had a team playing Brawl for nearly 3 days straight, carefully examining each and every character (and they're still updating it):

The thing with Fox is that [similarly to Marth] with everything they nerfed, they also improved another thing. In terms of nerfing Fox, very little was accomplished. This is from the same source:

I really didn't want to do this, because I didn't want this to turn into a discussion over tier lists [that will go in circles and accomplish nothing]. I am simply using this as evidence, and if you can find a source backing you up you can post it as well.

i have read those before....

a)i'm not marioman
b) only people who main yoshi can really judge yoshi, because he has a unique play style to him, and unless you know everything about that playstyle, you can't know if he's good or not. look at the yoshi section of smashboards, they're all praising his buffs, some even questioning if he's high tier

i'd trust those people way more

PrinceLink · 03-24-2008, 03:21 PM

Well the game is still unblanced i mean no matter how you look at it there is always going to be an unbalnce in a SSB game unless they all get the same moves in different skins, The thing is the best yoshi could NOT beat the best fox or marth because fox and marth are "bettter" than yoshi becuase how they were made.

Personally i main Olimar and Snake and both of them have a steep learning curve but are probably top tier if you learn to use them well

Jay61 · 03-24-2008, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mykennedy

i can GUARANTEE that as the game is being developed the creators arent thinking of making one guy better than another. they see a character. develop a move set. and leave it at that.

I feel the same way, and also that no characters moves are based around "advanced tecs" ...the players themself use the glitches that were overlooked in oreder to make the attack quicker etc...so if you can't use them as well without said tec then you've obviously become too over dependant on them.

Either way, I don't give a damn about tiers, I found characters that I enjoy going and not "tier list" will sway me.

mushroomedmario · 03-24-2008, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrinceLink

Well the game is still unblanced i mean no matter how you look at it there is always going to be an unbalnce in a SSB game unless they all get the same moves in different skins, The thing is the best yoshi could NOT beat the best fox or marth because fox and marth are "bettter" than yoshi becuase how they were made.

Personally i main Olimar and Snake and both of them have a steep learning curve but are probably top tier if you learn to use them well

stop saying that like it's fact, i believe the best yoshi could beat a best marth, but it's unlikely since hardly anyone mains yoshi, so the odds of a better player are against him

i believe the game to be very balanced, sure there are bad matchups(mario can't fight metaknight) but i think in general all characters are equal

Douten · 03-24-2008, 03:54 PM

Tier exists if you wanna compare X amount of good points in a character versus Y amount of good points in another. Even if every character had no lag in their moves, etc. then there'd be a tier of how strong attack are and things will still be "unfair".

Why is it unfair exactly? Because you can not win with the character you like? certainly you can't mean to tell me -everyone- is able to beat you simply because your character is of lower tier? Or is it because you can't win as much as you would like? If you're in the game for winning then don't worry about what character you like but what you have to use to win.

Top tier will dominate the tournament scene probably but that's because everyone wants to be a winner. This will be true for most game and shouldn't be something to bother people so much. Imagine what happen if your favorite character was top tier and everybody started using him/her, what will his/her value be worth to you?

What I'm saying is that no matter how balance the game gets people will nitpick who's faster than who down to the miliseconds and there would be an outcry of "unbalance" in that. It's just something to get used to. I'm sure with enough training with good people you will be able to punish most player well. Don't go off in the tangent saying "but if someone with the same amount of skill as me uses a higher tier then I'll be beaten." So what? You win some, you lose some. If you want to win much much more than losing without trying much then play with top tiers.

I see that you're trying to say because excluding certain ATs from previous games some character gets way more nerf than others, which I trust you in. I still believe that it's just a new strategy or play style that needs to be develop to conpensate that lost on certain character. If you can't recover fast from air born moves then you have to make sure you hit your opponent more often then? allowing you time to recover (if they get knock back far enough). If they shield and block a lot you just have to learn when the correct time is to do those moves, catch them off guard. I know it's all easier said than done, but if it is as easy said as done then there wouldn't be any fun would it?

spiff-ssbb · 03-24-2008, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LevesqueIsKing

Marioman & Wii-Fi

No offence, but I didn't bother watching the videos. No one here has said that a Yoshi can't beat a top tier, but that it is harder than it should be, which is unfair.

Yoshi was significantly hurt by the removal of many advanced technique's in Brawl, he still has no significant recovery, and his double jump has been heavily nerfed. Here are some character ratings from SmashBoards from a reliable source, whom had a team playing Brawl for nearly 3 days straight, carefully examining each and every character (and they're still updating it):

The thing with Fox is that [similarly to Marth] with everything they nerfed, they also improved another thing. In terms of nerfing Fox, very little was accomplished. This is from the same source:

I really didn't want to do this, because I didn't want this to turn into a discussion over tier lists [that will go in circles and accomplish nothing]. I am simply using this as evidence, and if you can find a source backing you up you can post it as well.

i read that list to. its highly opinionated but good nonetheless

LevesqueIsKing · 03-24-2008, 04:32 PM

I apologize, Mushroomed.

I like your post a lot, Douten.

Its not that I'm obsessed with winning, I just want to have fun. Let me just give you a quick rundown of my situation:

I have a casual friend that loves SSB, but isn't very good. In Melee he could not beat me. Period. He could pick the stage, the items, the stock, even my character, and he could never beat me. In Brawl, I'd say its about 70:30 him, and thats with completely even rules. Call me jealous, but this isn't how things are supposed to work. I've played this game day in and day out and he can beat me after 30 minutes of playing for the first time. I don't care how much you say winning doesn't matter, because when you're losing matches that you know you should easily win, it is not FUN.

Lets put it this way: Would it be fair if in Basketball one team's hoop was twice the diameter of the other? All I seem to be getting in response is "You should just train hard enough so that you can beat them. Develop new skills that you can use to your advantage." Well guess what? They have that same ability to develop new skills, and they probably even have more potential than I. I'm better than them, they still win.

And now I'm complaining. I'm done with this thread, guys. Didn't turn out the way I would have liked. Sorry if I've bothered you all with my bantering.

spiff-ssbb · 03-24-2008, 04:40 PM

^ no no i know what you mean. winning is where the fun is in the semi competative play of friends who all love the game. there's nothing more fun than a tourney with all your friends and all your 'unbeatable' characters each person has. anyways. pm me if you want a debate on topic lol these guys are going crazy with the tier lists before a single mlg tourney has even been played

Lugia · 03-24-2008, 04:43 PM

i like a game of competitive banter.

i never did answer your question of what the english version has to do with it. it expands the people playing it by around 65%.

that guys thread about char ratings would of been alot more satisfying if it could of said this guy plays these chars and this guy plays these other chars. for a thread thats supposed to have alot of input sure looks 1 sided.

LevesqueIsKing · 03-24-2008, 04:45 PM

^It does list mains and secondaries. Those characters that were not mained were a group effort of the entire team.

Douten · 03-24-2008, 04:56 PM

I see your point, and I'm guessing it's because of the lack the recovery ATs. In your friend point of view though, wouldn't he say the game is more balanced since he has a chance to actually beat you? or are his chances of winning highly dependant on the character he and you choose?

I understand your frustration real well (as far as it should be easy) since I have trouble of my own beating some Links I play online. All he does is simply spam boomerang and as Olimar I shouldn't be having a problem dealing with this since I'm long range myself, but it's a play style new to me (since I mostly play with cpu and they rarely spam much moves). I can see that through the matches with him I learn to deal with the nuisance better though, since he keeps on repeating the same strategies. And if I were eventually to be able to beat him and continue using the same strategies on him, he'll come up with something to counter, and it will repeat. The good thing is that this will make both him and me much more versatile. If we were to play with different opponent we would have more option at our dispossal.

I know I'm just getting off topic and being very hypothetical. Comparing the differences of tier in Melee and Brawl, how much leaving out certain ATs effect the game and make certain character more milked than other, etc. were your main points, but I don't have any good knowledge in those to agree or debate with you on : / I play casually. I can comment that if you like Melee style you should revert back to it for now, and perhaps sometime later new ATs will be discovered for Brawl that can help you Falcon Pawwwnch more people :3

03-24-2008, 02:39 PM	#21
Minebuster WiiChat Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 21 Friends: 0 6507-5762-1778-8349	If you know how to use people they can be amazing, at least thats what I think. __________________ Wii Code 6507-5762-1778-8349 Mikey SSBB Code 3136-6293-7887 MVP Please PM me if you add any

03-24-2008, 02:41 PM	#22
LevesqueIsKing An Instant Classic Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,176 Friends: 19 0000-0000-0000-0000	That is not what we are debating here, sorry. __________________ Not to fit a mold, Not to join a trend, Not to follow a crowd

03-24-2008, 02:43 PM	#23
Lugia WiiChat Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: wisconsin Posts: 317 Friends: 0 4841-8322-0786-7773	i think you need a fresher source. those posts were made before the english game was even out. __________________ Member of Ganondorf's Army SSBB CODE: 305072459278

03-24-2008, 02:55 PM	#25
Dorkfish dooshbag Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: In the Boondocks Posts: 1,047 Friends: 15 3041-8420-1576-4112	This happens in every game that has a competetive multiplayer community and includes many different types of characters. MMOs (WoW specifically), other fighters, even a few shooters out there have unbalanced gameplay thanks to certain characters being better than others. Its nothing new to see unbalenced gameplay in games. I think that Brawl is as unbalanced as Melee, it just has more characters to fill the tiers. __________________ FUCK ME, I'M ALL OUT OF ENEMIES

03-24-2008, 02:57 PM	#26
Lugia WiiChat Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: wisconsin Posts: 317 Friends: 0 4841-8322-0786-7773	he said impressions. maybe these guys just plain sucked balls with yoshi and i sure wouldnt expect them to be all that great with any of the 35 chars when asked on the spot. oh yea...id like to know when hes spent 80 hours on EVERY SINGLE CHAR. __________________ Member of Ganondorf's Army SSBB CODE: 305072459278


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03-24-2008, 03:03 PM	#27
LevesqueIsKing An Instant Classic Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,176 Friends: 19 0000-0000-0000-0000	You're going to find something wrong with it if thats what you're looking for. You're convincing yourself rather than looking at the evidence with an open mind. Don't worry, I disagreed with them once as well. But as I continued playing I realized that this is by far the most in-depth response I've ever seen, and it is exactly right. And don't try to diminish facts, it was a team of people, not some kid that mains Fox and hates Yoshi's guts. I don't even know why I'm having this debate, I'm done with the tier list thing, you can believe whatever you want. __________________ Not to fit a mold, Not to join a trend, Not to follow a crowd

03-24-2008, 03:10 PM	#29
mykennedy BEAST Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 71 Friends: 0	whoa. are you guys talking about a game? or analyzing a piece of literature? im sorry. giving a score to how powerful a character is in a video game is absolutely ridiculous. it isnt at all about all of the characters being balanced or unbalanced. its all about personal preference. i mean really. it seems like the way you want the game is for all of the characters to execute the exact same moves with the exact same amount of strength. but that would make for a boring game. the fact that the characters do have different moves is ALWAYS going to illicit the debate of which is better than which, when it doesnt necessarily exist. i can GUARANTEE that as the game is being developed the creators arent thinking of making one guy better than another. they see a character. develop a move set. and leave it at that. as long as theres differences in games. there will be debate over what is the best way to play. and the answer to that question is however you see fit. so quit crying about a VIDEO GAME. and do like i do. pick random at the character select screen. and have fun. its what the game was made for. not for people to analyze it. for people to have fun Last edited by mykennedy; 03-24-2008 at 03:13 PM.

03-24-2008, 03:54 PM	#34
Douten WiiChat Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: FL Posts: 308 Friends: 0 8244-2285-2713-6668	Tier exists if you wanna compare X amount of good points in a character versus Y amount of good points in another. Even if every character had no lag in their moves, etc. then there'd be a tier of how strong attack are and things will still be "unfair". Why is it unfair exactly? Because you can not win with the character you like? certainly you can't mean to tell me -everyone- is able to beat you simply because your character is of lower tier? Or is it because you can't win as much as you would like? If you're in the game for winning then don't worry about what character you like but what you have to use to win. Top tier will dominate the tournament scene probably but that's because everyone wants to be a winner. This will be true for most game and shouldn't be something to bother people so much. Imagine what happen if your favorite character was top tier and everybody started using him/her, what will his/her value be worth to you? What I'm saying is that no matter how balance the game gets people will nitpick who's faster than who down to the miliseconds and there would be an outcry of "unbalance" in that. It's just something to get used to. I'm sure with enough training with good people you will be able to punish most player well. Don't go off in the tangent saying "but if someone with the same amount of skill as me uses a higher tier then I'll be beaten." So what? You win some, you lose some. If you want to win much much more than losing without trying much then play with top tiers. I see that you're trying to say because excluding certain ATs from previous games some character gets way more nerf than others, which I trust you in. I still believe that it's just a new strategy or play style that needs to be develop to conpensate that lost on certain character. If you can't recover fast from air born moves then you have to make sure you hit your opponent more often then? allowing you time to recover (if they get knock back far enough). If they shield and block a lot you just have to learn when the correct time is to do those moves, catch them off guard. I know it's all easier said than done, but if it is as easy said as done then there wouldn't be any fun would it? __________________

03-24-2008, 04:32 PM	#36
LevesqueIsKing An Instant Classic Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,176 Friends: 19 0000-0000-0000-0000	I apologize, Mushroomed. I like your post a lot, Douten. Its not that I'm obsessed with winning, I just want to have fun. Let me just give you a quick rundown of my situation: I have a casual friend that loves SSB, but isn't very good. In Melee he could not beat me. Period. He could pick the stage, the items, the stock, even my character, and he could never beat me. In Brawl, I'd say its about 70:30 him, and thats with completely even rules. Call me jealous, but this isn't how things are supposed to work. I've played this game day in and day out and he can beat me after 30 minutes of playing for the first time. I don't care how much you say winning doesn't matter, because when you're losing matches that you know you should easily win, it is not FUN. Lets put it this way: Would it be fair if in Basketball one team's hoop was twice the diameter of the other? All I seem to be getting in response is "You should just train hard enough so that you can beat them. Develop new skills that you can use to your advantage." Well guess what? They have that same ability to develop new skills, and they probably even have more potential than I. I'm better than them, they still win. And now I'm complaining. I'm done with this thread, guys. Didn't turn out the way I would have liked. Sorry if I've bothered you all with my bantering. __________________ Not to fit a mold, Not to join a trend, Not to follow a crowd

03-24-2008, 04:40 PM	#37
spiff-ssbb WiiChat Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 657 Friends: 5 8140-2366-3149-0356	^ no no i know what you mean. winning is where the fun is in the semi competative play of friends who all love the game. there's nothing more fun than a tourney with all your friends and all your 'unbeatable' characters each person has. anyways. pm me if you want a debate on topic lol these guys are going crazy with the tier lists before a single mlg tourney has even been played __________________ "YOUR A HOOKER!" -Grandma's Boy

03-24-2008, 04:43 PM	#38
Lugia WiiChat Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: wisconsin Posts: 317 Friends: 0 4841-8322-0786-7773	i like a game of competitive banter. i never did answer your question of what the english version has to do with it. it expands the people playing it by around 65%. that guys thread about char ratings would of been alot more satisfying if it could of said this guy plays these chars and this guy plays these other chars. for a thread thats supposed to have alot of input sure looks 1 sided. __________________ Member of Ganondorf's Army SSBB CODE: 305072459278

03-24-2008, 04:45 PM	#39
LevesqueIsKing An Instant Classic Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,176 Friends: 19 0000-0000-0000-0000	^It does list mains and secondaries. Those characters that were not mained were a group effort of the entire team. __________________ Not to fit a mold, Not to join a trend, Not to follow a crowd

03-24-2008, 04:56 PM	#40
Douten WiiChat Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: FL Posts: 308 Friends: 0 8244-2285-2713-6668	I see your point, and I'm guessing it's because of the lack the recovery ATs. In your friend point of view though, wouldn't he say the game is more balanced since he has a chance to actually beat you? or are his chances of winning highly dependant on the character he and you choose? I understand your frustration real well (as far as it should be easy) since I have trouble of my own beating some Links I play online. All he does is simply spam boomerang and as Olimar I shouldn't be having a problem dealing with this since I'm long range myself, but it's a play style new to me (since I mostly play with cpu and they rarely spam much moves). I can see that through the matches with him I learn to deal with the nuisance better though, since he keeps on repeating the same strategies. And if I were eventually to be able to beat him and continue using the same strategies on him, he'll come up with something to counter, and it will repeat. The good thing is that this will make both him and me much more versatile. If we were to play with different opponent we would have more option at our dispossal. I know I'm just getting off topic and being very hypothetical. Comparing the differences of tier in Melee and Brawl, how much leaving out certain ATs effect the game and make certain character more milked than other, etc. were your main points, but I don't have any good knowledge in those to agree or debate with you on : / I play casually. I can comment that if you like Melee style you should revert back to it for now, and perhaps sometime later new ATs will be discovered for Brawl that can help you Falcon Pawwwnch more people :3 __________________ Last edited by Douten; 03-24-2008 at 04:59 PM.

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