Brawl - More or Less Balanced than Melee?

Lugia · 03-26-2008, 12:03 PM

mind game? someones using projectiles on me the whole game and i play a short range char and you think theres going to be a mind game? just because someones a predictable player doesnt mean theyre going to lose until someone decides to use another whorish strategy like theres.

Douten · 03-26-2008, 12:23 PM

Yes there is mind game you use to get close to him and use when you're right by him. If he starts running when you get close next time you get some what close but do something different, like quick turn around grab or something. You can develop a tatic to not let him be able to spam at all. You can't tell me simply because someone has long range they're going to be top tier dominating all short range character?

If someone is predictable how can they not easily lose? If you know that he is always going to shoot in a certain patern dodging them should just be simple. If you know when you get close to him he'll do a smash you can dodge it and punish. Doing the same thing over and over again isn't a bright idea as people catch on and counter.

The bottom line is spamming doesn't effect the game as much how each character is built and how diversely the player uses him/her.

Lugia · 03-26-2008, 12:45 PM

whatever. i think you need to go use ganon and play a zelda user spamming b forward to figure out that you cant and wont be able to do shit very easily.

spamming doesnt really effect the game at all. its just the way some people play all the time. they dont care about the chars but they care about winning and if they think theyve got something by god theyll use it till the day they die.

spiff-ssbb · 03-26-2008, 12:49 PM

^ it can still be done... its just SUPER annoying since it takes so long to close the distance with his running speed. but more annoying than zelda is pit... so be thankful you weren't facing one of those

Douten · 03-26-2008, 01:11 PM

Some of Ganon move can be used to close distance. Let's say he's using his forward B towards you then when it's near you down B since he can't move the the fire move backwards he's forced to let it go. I don't play Ganon so I wouldn't really know how hazerdous Zelda is vs Ganon. I do have experience with Zelda spamming forward B I just dodge/air dodge :x It's rather a slow move so you can close distance pretty well while it's going towards you.

I don't know I might be up for that challenge of facing a Zelda with Ganon though I might do horribly. Do you just fight with random Zelda online? or is it a rl friend? even then our distance is pretty far (I'm FL) that it would probably lag :x

spiff-ssbb · 03-26-2008, 01:15 PM

^ side b and down b have too much lag to be used as closing moves. if you try it they'll just catch you with the explosion mid lag. you gotta just work your way towards them with jumps into air dodges and side steps when you land. its annoying to have to do but its pretty much the only way.

Lugia · 03-26-2008, 02:52 PM

i have 3-4 friends online id say i know and play with out of 59. still everyone i play brawl with i only know online.

lag will kill you. that and i should probably work on side stepping.

cant say ive had a real problem with pit players yet then again i havent had many 1v1s with any pits.

Douten · 03-26-2008, 09:04 PM

I see, I thought it was a pretty fast move from what I see but I guess I didn't see it right then :x Ganon is an interesting character cause of his speed and until I can actually utilize short jumps and meteor smash well I don't think I can go far with him x3

gbj153 · 03-26-2008, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KHgamer

it's less balance, buti consider that a good thing. i dont ever wanna see ike lose 2 jigglypuff. :o-watch out ike....

hoho....I beat an Ike online using jiggly my fav characther... ^^

Lugia · 03-26-2008, 09:49 PM

what move? i dont worry about short hops too much. his meteor smash isnt as easy to use as it was in melee. too many chars get more air then him for it to work.

Douten · 03-26-2008, 10:24 PM

His down b that I mention that could have close distance but spiff says it's too slow so I guess it's not a real good idea.

On a side note I did play some people with Ganondorf, not Zelda, and it seems that the usual style I play that I apply to random character I use somewhat works for for him. The thing I have to get use to is that his smash range isn't as far as Olimar x3 His side smash is such a great finishing move, such high launch power. I manage to hit a few time with my mid-air down b, which was pretty deadly. I like his forward b as well but at times it doesn't reach, I'll have to learn its range better x3 pretty interesting character.

Lugia · 03-26-2008, 10:43 PM

his b+down does work against someone that spams b w/pikachu. you just have to grind it hard but it will drive them down.

gbj153 · 03-27-2008, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugia

what move? i dont worry about short hops too much. his meteor smash isnt as easy to use as it was in melee. too many chars get more air then him for it to work.

I guess with the comonon combo i use, when i get knocked off i use roll out to recover/damage, hit him up/pound, guard the returning blow, and then aim carefully and than use rest. If i hit it which is 7/10 times, i manage to KO or get them really far off so i can recover. If i miss......Well.....

Damascus · 03-27-2008, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gbj153

I guess with the comonon combo i use, when i get knocked off i use roll out to recover/damage, hit him up/pound, guard the returning blow, and then aim carefully and than use rest. If i hit it which is 7/10 times, i manage to KO or get them really far off so i can recover. If i miss......Well.....

Of course, air dodging might dodge the rest or pound...

And then pure killing spree follows

gbj153 · 03-27-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damascus

Of course, air dodging might dodge the rest or pound...

And then pure killing spree follows

But u need real skills to master jigglypuff xD and aim

spiff-ssbb · 03-27-2008, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douten

I see, I thought it was a pretty fast move from what I see but I guess I didn't see it right then :x Ganon is an interesting character cause of his speed and until I can actually utilize short jumps and meteor smash well I don't think I can go far with him x3

its not the speed of the move itself its the fact that after the move's animation is done he sits there for quite a while before you can do anything else.
to your next post:
my favorite ganon moves for killing are his air moves. all of them have killing power. try u tilting into a crowd of people in 1v1v1v1s haha the results can be funny

AceAlabama · 03-28-2008, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gbj153

But u need real skills to master jigglypuff xD and aim

I agree. Jigglypuff is actually pretty decent. (But any character with a crazy "roll/spin/charge" eg.: Jiggly, Yoshi, Sonic, Wario, Meta usually lead me to a self-destruct.)

My fav. 5 are as follows:

R.O.B. (Main)
Fox
Toon Link
Mario
Peach

R.O.B and Peach take some strategy, but are great characters.

(My list MAY change after this post...)

My point is that everyone has a CHANCE, but some have more in the hands of other people.

(Also, I'd choose to play as Peach over Ike. Really.)

RPGMasterTurk91 · 10-03-2009, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LevesqueIsKing

I'm going to try to have an educated debate here. Back up your statements with evidence.

This is NOT a tier list discussion, nor is it a discussion of whether tier lists exist or not. If you've yet to realize that they exist, please do not post in this thread.

Prior to release, many of the pro's were stating that Brawl was going to revolutionize the Super Smash Bros. series simply due to its equality. Even after release, people continued to praise Brawl for its seemingly perfect balance. However, now that I've scraped away at the golden cover of Brawl, it seems as though it were made of metal.

I'm really afraid that when we finally recieve that first official tier list the results are going to be devestating. It just seems as though the gap
between best and worse is SO much more exaggerated this time around. Space animals and Prince Marth will still rule supreme, will still win half of all tournaments, and will still be overused by noobs. And Sakurai did not boost old bottom-tier characters nearly enough, such as Yoshi, destined to be the future scum of Brawl.

I also doubt that Sakurai realized how much taking out advanced techniques such as L-Cancelling and Wavedashing hurt SPECIFIC characters. Perhaps he thought that it would hurt all characters equally? That happens to be significantly false. Slow characters are punished HORRIBLY if they miss an aerial due to the lack of L-Cancelling, and other characters' playstyles were molded AROUND advanced techniques.

Don't kid yourselves, tier lists are alive and kicking, and people choose their characters based on them. I mained Falcon in Melee [nearly guaranteed bottom tier in Brawl] and I still love the guy, but fact is that ITS NOT FUN playing as him anymore. You can tell me that I can still win against top tiers, but its NOT FUN losing 2/3 of the time when I could main a top tier and win 9/10 of the time. Hell, I can't even consistently beat my casual friends, let alone computers, with Falcon. I'm not making excuses, I'm stating fact. I'm on the verge of switching back to Melee simply because Falcon was fun to play as back then, and *coincidentally* he was high-mid tier. I don't like Brawl because of this, because it hardly allows me to use the character I want to use. I don't want to switch characters, but I don't want to lose matches that I know I should win, either.

And now I'll leave you with a question. We were all hoping for 50, even 60 characters, but what is the use of having so many characters if they are so unequal that half of them ARE NOT USED BY ANYONE. I would have rather Sakurai kept Melee's roster and made them completely equal. That would have been the perfect game. You'll see in the coming months that every person online will be using Space Animals, Marth, Pit and Diddy. Sakurai might as well have given us a roster of 5 characters...

I know I'm quoting the first post, and I haven't checked to see if this thread died, but I am in complete agreement with you here. Everything you said coincides with an unbalanced game and peoples' reactions to dealing with them, such as "pick a different character", and that "you can still beat top tier characters, they aren't unbeatable!". But it's NOT FUN when the match is rigged from the very start, in the opponents favor. So I am with your old post all the way, it also goes hand-in-hand with what I see as a very unbalanced game, and the problems that come with it.

EDIT: Oh man, I just looked to see how old this post was, and to my worst fear, well over a year old. Alright mods, it was a good discussion thread that apparently died. Lock it up and do what you want with it, but I see it as a new opportunity for the new Wiichat audience to voice their opinions and have something more to do... (I'm really encouraging to at least wait for a little while to see if the thread kicks back into an education discussion rather than immediately locking it up

Bio · 10-04-2009, 03:11 PM

Yes, Brawl is only slightly more balanced. There are more characters that stand a chance in tournaments.

However, it's more accurate to say that Brawl is just a different game from Melee entirely. When making Brawl, Sakurai purposely removed many of the Advanced Techniques from Melee that made it so competitive and slightly tweaked character abilities (Captain Falcon and Fox are worse in Brawl, for instance) and the physics (one example is reduced hitstun), resulting in two games that are very different from each other. So in spite of Brawl's more well-rounded roster, you will find many who still prefer Melee.

RPGMasterTurk91 · 10-09-2009, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio

Yes, Brawl is only slightly more balanced. There are more characters that stand a chance in tournaments.

However, it's more accurate to say that Brawl is just a different game from Melee entirely. When making Brawl, Sakurai purposely removed many of the Advanced Techniques from Melee that made it so competitive and slightly tweaked character abilities (Captain Falcon and Fox are worse in Brawl, for instance) and the physics (one example is reduced hitstun), resulting in two games that are very different from each other. So in spite of Brawl's more well-rounded roster, you will find many who still prefer Melee.

This is true, certain characters cannot be deemed "better" than others when comparing games, simply because the mechanics are different. There is a level of how good a character is, but pitting a brawl-mechanized character against a melee-mechanized character is a suicide mission--while the person playing as the melee character will almost always win, this doesn't mean that that character was made better, the atmosphere surrounding each character is what makes that character more likely to win.

On that note, Meta Knight is too fast for Brawl and thus unrealistic for its gameplay and is more suited for Melee. A melee character in Brawl is an unrealistic one is pretty much my point.

03-26-2008, 12:03 PM	#61
Lugia WiiChat Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: wisconsin Posts: 317 Friends: 0 4841-8322-0786-7773	mind game? someones using projectiles on me the whole game and i play a short range char and you think theres going to be a mind game? just because someones a predictable player doesnt mean theyre going to lose until someone decides to use another whorish strategy like theres. __________________ Member of Ganondorf's Army SSBB CODE: 305072459278

03-26-2008, 12:23 PM	#62
Douten WiiChat Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: FL Posts: 308 Friends: 0 8244-2285-2713-6668	Yes there is mind game you use to get close to him and use when you're right by him. If he starts running when you get close next time you get some what close but do something different, like quick turn around grab or something. You can develop a tatic to not let him be able to spam at all. You can't tell me simply because someone has long range they're going to be top tier dominating all short range character? If someone is predictable how can they not easily lose? If you know that he is always going to shoot in a certain patern dodging them should just be simple. If you know when you get close to him he'll do a smash you can dodge it and punish. Doing the same thing over and over again isn't a bright idea as people catch on and counter. The bottom line is spamming doesn't effect the game as much how each character is built and how diversely the player uses him/her. __________________

03-26-2008, 12:45 PM	#63
Lugia WiiChat Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: wisconsin Posts: 317 Friends: 0 4841-8322-0786-7773	whatever. i think you need to go use ganon and play a zelda user spamming b forward to figure out that you cant and wont be able to do shit very easily. spamming doesnt really effect the game at all. its just the way some people play all the time. they dont care about the chars but they care about winning and if they think theyve got something by god theyll use it till the day they die. __________________ Member of Ganondorf's Army SSBB CODE: 305072459278

03-26-2008, 12:49 PM	#64
spiff-ssbb WiiChat Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 657 Friends: 5 8140-2366-3149-0356	^ it can still be done... its just SUPER annoying since it takes so long to close the distance with his running speed. but more annoying than zelda is pit... so be thankful you weren't facing one of those __________________ "YOUR A HOOKER!" -Grandma's Boy

03-26-2008, 01:11 PM	#65
Douten WiiChat Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: FL Posts: 308 Friends: 0 8244-2285-2713-6668	Some of Ganon move can be used to close distance. Let's say he's using his forward B towards you then when it's near you down B since he can't move the the fire move backwards he's forced to let it go. I don't play Ganon so I wouldn't really know how hazerdous Zelda is vs Ganon. I do have experience with Zelda spamming forward B I just dodge/air dodge :x It's rather a slow move so you can close distance pretty well while it's going towards you. I don't know I might be up for that challenge of facing a Zelda with Ganon though I might do horribly. Do you just fight with random Zelda online? or is it a rl friend? even then our distance is pretty far (I'm FL) that it would probably lag :x __________________


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03-26-2008, 01:15 PM	#66
spiff-ssbb WiiChat Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 657 Friends: 5 8140-2366-3149-0356	^ side b and down b have too much lag to be used as closing moves. if you try it they'll just catch you with the explosion mid lag. you gotta just work your way towards them with jumps into air dodges and side steps when you land. its annoying to have to do but its pretty much the only way. __________________ "YOUR A HOOKER!" -Grandma's Boy

03-26-2008, 02:52 PM	#67
Lugia WiiChat Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: wisconsin Posts: 317 Friends: 0 4841-8322-0786-7773	i have 3-4 friends online id say i know and play with out of 59. still everyone i play brawl with i only know online. lag will kill you. that and i should probably work on side stepping. cant say ive had a real problem with pit players yet then again i havent had many 1v1s with any pits. __________________ Member of Ganondorf's Army SSBB CODE: 305072459278

03-26-2008, 09:04 PM	#68
Douten WiiChat Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: FL Posts: 308 Friends: 0 8244-2285-2713-6668	I see, I thought it was a pretty fast move from what I see but I guess I didn't see it right then :x Ganon is an interesting character cause of his speed and until I can actually utilize short jumps and meteor smash well I don't think I can go far with him x3 __________________

03-26-2008, 09:49 PM	#70
Lugia WiiChat Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: wisconsin Posts: 317 Friends: 0 4841-8322-0786-7773	what move? i dont worry about short hops too much. his meteor smash isnt as easy to use as it was in melee. too many chars get more air then him for it to work. __________________ Member of Ganondorf's Army SSBB CODE: 305072459278

03-26-2008, 10:24 PM	#71
Douten WiiChat Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: FL Posts: 308 Friends: 0 8244-2285-2713-6668	His down b that I mention that could have close distance but spiff says it's too slow so I guess it's not a real good idea. On a side note I did play some people with Ganondorf, not Zelda, and it seems that the usual style I play that I apply to random character I use somewhat works for for him. The thing I have to get use to is that his smash range isn't as far as Olimar x3 His side smash is such a great finishing move, such high launch power. I manage to hit a few time with my mid-air down b, which was pretty deadly. I like his forward b as well but at times it doesn't reach, I'll have to learn its range better x3 pretty interesting character. __________________

03-26-2008, 10:43 PM	#72
Lugia WiiChat Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: wisconsin Posts: 317 Friends: 0 4841-8322-0786-7773	his b+down does work against someone that spams b w/pikachu. you just have to grind it hard but it will drive them down. __________________ Member of Ganondorf's Army SSBB CODE: 305072459278

10-04-2009, 03:11 PM	#79
Bio WiiChat Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 939 Friends: 23	Yes, Brawl is only slightly more balanced. There are more characters that stand a chance in tournaments. However, it's more accurate to say that Brawl is just a different game from Melee entirely. When making Brawl, Sakurai purposely removed many of the Advanced Techniques from Melee that made it so competitive and slightly tweaked character abilities (Captain Falcon and Fox are worse in Brawl, for instance) and the physics (one example is reduced hitstun), resulting in two games that are very different from each other. So in spite of Brawl's more well-rounded roster, you will find many who still prefer Melee. __________________ Brawl Code: 3566 3531 3273 Official Recordkeeper of the 1v1 League Want to compete in Smash Bros. on WiiChat? Join the League now! =) (I am NOT accepting Friend codes.) Last edited by Bio; 10-04-2009 at 03:14 PM.

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