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Mar, perhaps you need to accept defeat. You're the only one backing your point up, and all of your arguments are utter nonsense.
On the topic of Link: I think he has a little bit of potential, but his recovery is so abysmal, I don't think there's even a chance of him making high tier, or possibly even medium. I don't know him as a character all that well, the above statement is purely speculation, so correct me if I'm wrong about him not being a higher tier character.
I think he should be medium tier.
He has a lot of different projectiles to choose from, and hes a sword fighter, he also has a good grab.
Hes a heavy character so he wont get KOed easily, while he can still move pretty fast.
I think he should be medium tier.
He has a lot of different projectiles to choose from, and hes a sword fighter, he also has a good grab.
Hes a heavy character so he wont get KOed easily, while he can still move pretty fast.
From what I've seen, his grab isn't that great. It has mediocre knockback, and if you miss, you're left open for quite a few frames.
His speed on land leaves nothing to be desired: he's heavy, but he can move at an average speed.
I'd put him at the bottom of medium or top of low.
Link. Decent projectile game, strong attacks. Bad recovery, slow, big, and his projectile game isn't as good as TLs. I can't go into specifics here because I don't play as him.
Um.... did I ever say that combos and techniques weren't taking into fact when tiers are made up, what I said was that tiers are BASED off the characters basic skill, then once the techniques, combos, and other stuff is added the tiers are finished.
If you based it off just the players ability there would be no tier because there is always going to be someone with better technique, so when I say basic skill its the cpu's skill even though extra things are taken into account.
There was absolutely no reason to start getting ugly whether I'm right or wrong in any conversation.
Having more than one Tier list doesn't make any sence what so ever.
Now your just trying to change your answer so that its correct.
No, if you read I didn't change my answer it has been the same the whole time. Just because I said combos and techniques were involved in making tiers, didn't mean I changed my answer. I said tiers are based upon the characters ability and that would include things like comboing.
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Brawl Name: Mar
Brawl FC: 1848-2755-8203
O M F G. You are the most idiotic ignoramus to ever grace this thread. I'm sorry, but if you don't even know the correct way to grade characters, then just piss the **** off and get the hell out of here. Judging a character based on a CPUs performance is just retarded.
Ugh, I don't even know what to say to that post Mar...you're being completely ignorant because you believe yourself to be right and don't give a d*** what anybody else says...well, sorry, but you're wrong.
The one thing I WILL say, however, is that multiple tier lists are better than one though zero is better than both and because you said that it makes no sense, I shall try to explain.
Basically, because each person has different abilities, there can be no one way to judge a character's effectiveness. Now you could say the list measures potential, but it's all circumstancial. Therefore, my idea was to have a seperate tier list for those with different abilities...for example, if you are more of an aerial fighter, then you would have a seperate tier list saying which fighters are more effective for your style and against whom are you best suited. Obviously your individual talent would still create problems with the lists as many players may have different views...but by breaking them into categories, each list will at least be MORE accurate.
Now in case that made no sense whatsoever (which is entirely possible), I will compare my idea to the current setup; currently, tiers depict the overall effectiveness of any given character. My idea, however, depicts the circumstancial effectiveness of that same character based on your individual fighting style.
Does that clear things up at all?
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~RAWR~
Spoiler Alert!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leves
This pwnage is brought to you by S.S.
Pwnage isn't pwnage unless its S.S. pwnage.
...I hate the little bastard. He could win a debate that the world is flat. ;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma
Welcome aboard to the S.S. Awesome
Awesome list:
Leves, Axtlar, Steph, Marioman, Wario, D_L, icyloopia, Emaa, Wreked, Shoko, Cyan, and prolly some others
Do you seriously think thats how its going to be the entire time? The games been out for three months. There haven't been that many tournaments yet, so you cant judge your thesis on a few bits of information. The metagame has not developed yet, so don't be judging the balance of the game before everything has been figured out.
I know its too early but if your not going to let me judge from the facts so far then why did you make such a speculatory thread? lol
to Mar:
no problem. i don't fully agree with lists made from CPU testing though to tell you the truth. but some characters are already developing broken moves... IC chain grab is MORE broken 3 months into the game then it was in 5 years of melee play. (wobble wasn't descovered untill 5th-6th year i believe)
Falco's lasers are broken on fallen foe.
overall they tried to eliminate chain grabs so they took away the ones they knew well, the marth up throw, sheik down throw, the space animal slayer, the up throw to up smash on fast fallers with spacies, etc. but they failed to test the new system enough to realize that they replaced these escapable chain throws with broken ones.
to S.S.:
I'm not denying that each character can be used effectively if done right and that each has their own playing style. you are misunderstanding the meaning of a tier list. A tier list puts values on the versatility of a character (in short) and takes into consideration counterpicking. yes you may own your friend with your Yoshi, or your DK, or your Ganon. but thats an isolated event. tier lists are made more for professional play where the weaknesses of the lower tiers are HEAVILY exploited, it is in these instances where the aforementioned characters are highly disadvantaged. Nobody's telling you that you MUST main a high tier character, just that its easier. I've gone through many many mains in the past 3 months from DK to Sonic to Game and Watch and i can tell you that while my Yoshi can own up some Olimars and the odd DK i'll get owned by a Meta any day.
and on the CPU testing:
just because a Yoshi wins 2/3 does not mean it will win 20/30 or 200/300. you must test hundreds of times before you can argue against the Smashboards user who made that list. 2/3 is not enough to make a counter arguement.
FINALLY back on topic:
Link has some of the coolest AT's (advanced techniques) the game has to offer so far but his recovery seems to have him destined for a low-mid tier status
sorry about the super long post. had a lot to cover
and a word of caution:
its your thread so i'm not gunna tell you that you have to stay perfectly on topic. but try and keep your arguments educated and less heated.
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No items, No johns. get transmorgraphied.
Spiff, I thought you of all people would agree that a Tier List can not be made by pitting two CPUs against each other numerous times. Honestly, its completely idiotic. Take Snake for example. The Snake CPU is possibly one of the easiest CPUs to kill because it can't play him like he should be played, yet Snake is widely considered to be one of the best characters in the game. How does this work?
^ oh you misunderstood me. i agree its not the proper way to do it.. its lazy actually and inaccurate since the recovery techniques and combo's of level nine's are basic. so yes i agree. sorry if my last post was confusing
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No items, No johns. get transmorgraphied.
^ oh you misunderstood me. i agree its not the proper way to do it.. its lazy actually and inaccurate since the recovery techniques and combo's of level nine's are basic. so yes i agree. sorry if my last post was confusing
to S.S.:
I'm not denying that each character can be used effectively if done right and that each has their own playing style. you are misunderstanding the meaning of a tier list. A tier list puts values on the versatility of a character (in short) and takes into consideration counterpicking.
Yes but that versatility is much different depending on what moves you use and how you use them. I understand that that's how tier lists are set up, I just believe said lists are very innacurate.
Quote:
yes you may own your friend with your Yoshi, or your DK, or your Ganon. but thats an isolated event. tier lists are made more for professional play where the weaknesses of the lower tiers are HEAVILY exploited, it is in these instances where the aforementioned characters are highly disadvantaged.
"Professional play" makes you sound like a prick (no offense, this isn't a comment directed at you, I'm just bringing it up because you mentioned it). It's honestly just a term for those who have little enough of a life to spend weeks on end "mastering" the game etc. Now, forgetting that term was ever used, I must point out that EVERY character has weaknesses that can be exploited if done properly...you even said as much earlier in your post (or I misunderstood you, but that certainly is a fact). This means, once again, that tiers do not always apply.
Quote:
Nobody's telling you that you MUST main a high tier character, just that its easier. I've gone through many many mains in the past 3 months from DK to Sonic to Game and Watch and i can tell you that while my Yoshi can own up some Olimars and the odd DK i'll get owned by a Meta any day.
Yeah, but that's just it; it's not always easier. Personally, I have such a hard time using characters like Meta Knight who, if I interpreted your post correctly, is a higher-tier character than Yoshi etc.
Quote:
and on the CPU testing:
just because a Yoshi wins 2/3 does not mean it will win 20/30 or 200/300. you must test hundreds of times before you can argue against the Smashboards user who made that list. 2/3 is not enough to make a counter arguement.
No, but that was the point I was making; CPU testing simply must not be used. (And either way, I'm still better with Yoshi than I am with Fox)
__________________
~RAWR~
Spoiler Alert!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leves
This pwnage is brought to you by S.S.
Pwnage isn't pwnage unless its S.S. pwnage.
...I hate the little bastard. He could win a debate that the world is flat. ;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma
Welcome aboard to the S.S. Awesome
Awesome list:
Leves, Axtlar, Steph, Marioman, Wario, D_L, icyloopia, Emaa, Wreked, Shoko, Cyan, and prolly some others
going through your post from top to bottom here:
-they probably are inaccurate. a true tier list takes at least a year to develop. and yes the usage of different moves does make a difference but this is taken into consideration when making a tier list. certain characters have an arsenal of moves that are useful. others have but a few (their other moves being highly situational.
for example:
Marth's aerials can almost all be used as entries, juggles, KO moves, combo starters and fillers, and defensive spacing moves. he can KO with 3 of his specials. his smashes are quick and strong. in other words he's versatile.
Sonic on the other hand can only KO (for the most part) in the air with his B air and the occasional U air. F air and N air can combo, D air is quite useless in most situations (please trust me on this one). his smashes (barring F smash) are quick, but lack power. his F smash has power but is predictable and slow/laggy. no special can effectively KO though they do help him recover.
the difference is YES they can both KO and anyone can do well with either of them (I main them both by the way) but its much harder, and you must play much smarter if you main sonic as your opponent only has to look for a few moves. with marth you must beware of nearly every move. so this is where the versatility helps. hope that helps
-Though you might not like the term, this is the main purpose of a tier list, for the hardcore. love it or hate it i suppose. I'm by no means a Pro player but i envy anyone who can make money off of video games so to me anyways, calling them 'those who have little enough of a life to spend weeks on end "mastering" the game' is a sign of jealousy... not saying you are. thats just the way it seems. but like you said, words are words, lets forget it.
your point about character weaknesses is true and your right skill is MUCH bigger of a factor than Tiers. but in tourneys counter picking is Key and this is where tiers come in, character match ups can give you the edge you need over an equally skilled opponent.
and your next point is a personal preference thing. I also have difficulty using meta, but i still don't question his place in the top tier. personal favorites must be taken out of the picture for these discussions. they are far too situational.
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No items, No johns. get transmorgraphied.
Brilliant posts from both sides (Spiff and S.S), and hilariously retarded posts by Mar (Sorry, had to), and equally funny posts by Dork.
Anyways, Spiff, what you're saying makes a tier list sound more like a character matchup chart. In melee, for instant, didn't jigglypuff rape Fox and Falco with the space animal slayer? But wasn't jigglypuff "low tier"?
In my opinion, this is what is more important than what.
Brilliant posts from both sides (Spiff and S.S), and hilariously retarded posts by Mar (Sorry, had to), and equally funny posts by Dork.
Anyways, Spiff, what you're saying makes a tier list sound more like a character matchup chart. In melee, for instant, didn't jigglypuff rape Fox and Falco with the space animal slayer? But wasn't jigglypuff "low tier"?
In my opinion, this is what is more important than what.
Skill > Matchup > Number of pimples > Tier lists.
By funny do you mean retarded? Because if you actually read them you will see that I was just saying that it was impossible to make a tier list using CPU characters. L2read IMO
