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Bullet seed cannot be DI'd out of unless at the top of the stream. If you get someone trapped in the move near the starting of where the bullets appear, it's an easy 40 percent. If you knock them into it with the startup of the attack, it's at least 20% until they can DI out of it.
His Dair spikes?! I always thought that'd be ****ing awesome, never tried it though.
Pit can't do the advanced technique where you do a short hop, and B-stick in the opposite direction, making you fly backwards as you do the move. Ivysaur can do it with the razor leaf. That's not enough to place him better than Pit though. Maybe I made an overstatement. Either way, his projectile is pretty good.
Let's talk about Squirtle since you mentioned him then hmm?
Smallest character in the game. Hard to sweetspot. Very fast aerial movement. Shellshifting is very useful. Up smash has great vertical range and is decently powerful, side smash is powerful and gives super armor frames, and down smash has alot of horizontal range and good-enough knockback.
Really good at juggling. Is invincible during his SideB. Water gun is useful in certain situations. Great combo'er. Fair is a powerful dropkick, and Dair is a dropkick as well, but not as powerful.
Great character if you ask me. He's really light, so that's his weakness.
oooh sorry i wasn't aware of the Bullet leaf's usage when hit in that area... i've only ever been hit high with it.
and YES it spikes! its pretty easy to sweet spot to. and you gotta try them lol their like the most fun parts of the game... especially his cuz its like and explosion of gas that spikes lol
Every character can RAR. its done on standard controls by tapping the opposite direction and jumping at nearly the same time and them air controlling towards the opponent for maximum momentum. B sticking causes auto RAR for some characters for some reason but not for others but all characters can RAR. but yes his projectiles are wicked.
ya nice post on squirtle. he's super fun to use like all little quick characters. i dont think hes invincible for ALL of his side b (that would be quite broken) but for some of it for sure.
he reminds me of Jiggly with faster air movement and less floatyness, and in many cases less lag. and i did not know side smash has super armor... is this confirmed? where in the animation?
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No items, No johns. get transmorgraphied.
Auto-RAR works for nearly all the characters(I use it). I'm guessing the sweet spot is right in the center, right when the explosion comes out? I'd assume so. And trust me, I love spikes so much I go out of my way for them :P
He's invincible to damage for the entire duration of his SideB, however his shell (and him) will be sent in that appropriate direction with the appropriate force. If Ike does his forward smash on your shell, you will most likely need to recover after stopping Squirtle's shell from the distance he was thrown. You won't take ANY damage though, and the knockback is far less than it would've been. The downside is that if you jump on his shell during the move, he is stunned for a time similar to that of a sheild break, or longer. It's enough to run over to him on FD and charge up Dedede's front smash fully.
His front smash has armor frames and I can confirm it. I have no way to upload it, just test it yourself. It's exactly the same as Wario's Front smash, except Squirtle goes back to the original starting point after he attacks. The super armor is in the attack as it comes out, the same as any. It doesn't even need to be charged up. It's very situationally limited though, so it's fair.
He reminds me of Diddy Kong sort of(his aerials), just better, and also Wario for his midair movement. His short hopped fairs are pretty good. Also he has the best knockback Drill attack (Dair).
I think I've wrote enough for now. His recovery is very meh, though.
He has to be my favourite heavyweight. Flamethrower is great for stopping approaches, and it does a quick 20-30%, or up to 50% if they can't DI out of it properly. Rock smash has got to be the best special ever. 30%+ damage, splits into projectiles, HUGE knockback, easy to land, can be used in the air, allows you to slide and use it... wow.
UpB is a good finisher and grants super armor frames. Overall hard to knock out, since he has multiple midair jumps and can glide, as well as use his UpB. He has a great mix of strong, fast, and large radius moves. And he has an awesome spike.
-they probably are inaccurate. a true tier list takes at least a year to develop. and yes the usage of different moves does make a difference but this is taken into consideration when making a tier list. certain characters have an arsenal of moves that are useful. others have but a few (their other moves being highly situational.
Well all moves are situational so I'm not sure I understand, and therefore I'll finish reading your post before arguing.
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for example:
Marth's aerials can almost all be used as entries, juggles, KO moves, combo starters and fillers, and defensive spacing moves. he can KO with 3 of his specials. his smashes are quick and strong. in other words he's versatile.
Ok, I THINK I'm starting to see where you're going with this...
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Sonic on the other hand can only KO (for the most part) in the air with his B air and the occasional U air. F air and N air can combo, D air is quite useless in most situations (please trust me on this one). his smashes (barring F smash) are quick, but lack power. his F smash has power but is predictable and slow/laggy. no special can effectively KO though they do help him recover.
Well that's where playing style comes in...Sonic is a very hit&run character meant to rack up the opponent's damage before going for the kill whereas Marth is more of a get-your-strong-moves-in-before-they-run character. I understand that TYPICALLY players would choose Marth over Sonic because of this, but I've seen some incredibly formidable Sonics. And his DAir is quite useful, but you have to be quick because if your opponent sees what you're getting at then it's as useless as Yoshi's or Bowser's DSpecial.
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the difference is YES they can both KO and anyone can do well with either of them (I main them both by the way) but its much harder, and you must play much smarter if you main sonic as your opponent only has to look for a few moves. with marth you must beware of nearly every move. so this is where the versatility helps. hope that helps
OH. Well then there's a good chance you can disregard all of the above because you're agreeing with me. HOWEVER, the part we seem to disagree on is how much effort it takes to master each one...my point being that different people have an easier time mastering Sonic whereas people like you may have an easier time learning with Marth. It all has to do with the way you think and the way you game (ie I've found that my dad, who rarely games, sees VERY different opportunities to get in a KO then I do but they often work just as well whereas I try to think very strategically and he's just trying to survive)
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-Though you might not like the term, this is the main purpose of a tier list, for the hardcore. love it or hate it i suppose. I'm by no means a Pro player but i envy anyone who can make money off of video games so to me anyways, calling them 'those who have little enough of a life to spend weeks on end "mastering" the game' is a sign of jealousy... not saying you are. thats just the way it seems. but like you said, words are words, lets forget it.
Yeah my point was not one of jealousy as I haven't even PLAYED Brawl in about a month so I couldn't care less (and actually expect) if I'm worse then others. My point was instead that many of us have things to do like get jobs or go to school etc and cannot game as much as others. Now, looking at your the post I just quoted, however, I see you mean those who get PAID because of their skill, and that is indeed something that would make me practice more if the opportunity arose. That still doesn't mean tiers apply, however, just that those people who get paid for this may actually have lives unlike my earlier statements suggested.
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your point about character weaknesses is true and your right skill is MUCH bigger of a factor than Tiers. but in tourneys counter picking is Key and this is where tiers come in, character match ups can give you the edge you need over an equally skilled opponent.
Even if you are equally matched with an opponent, tiers do not determine a win or a loss or even contribute to it as you must simply know that the characters are not one in the same and must be used differently.
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and your next point is a personal preference thing. I also have difficulty using meta, but i still don't question his place in the top tier. personal favorites must be taken out of the picture for these discussions. they are far too situational.
Except that that's the whole point; if tiers show how easy it is to master a character then you MUST have been able to master him as quickly as his placement suggests. If you cannot or have not, then the character's placement on the tier list is untrue. See, even though Meta Knight is supposedly easier to learn to use than other characters and may have some advantage over another character just because he's Meta Knight doesn't mean those advantages are actually relevant as you must simply understand what his strengths and weaknesses are in order to defeat him.
Maybe if you give me examples (such as an advantage Meta Knight has over a different character that supposedly makes him better) I'll either understand your point better or be able to explain mine better, but right now it seems as though we're talking in circles.
EDIT: On the current discussion of Charizard, I use Pokemon Trainer in the Subspace ALL the time and typically use Charizard, but when I'm in an online or other multiplayer match I always lose for some reason...
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~RAWR~
Spoiler Alert!
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Originally Posted by Leves
This pwnage is brought to you by S.S.
Pwnage isn't pwnage unless its S.S. pwnage.
...I hate the little bastard. He could win a debate that the world is flat. ;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma
Welcome aboard to the S.S. Awesome
Awesome list:
Leves, Axtlar, Steph, Marioman, Wario, D_L, icyloopia, Emaa, Wreked, Shoko, Cyan, and prolly some others
Hm, actually I wanted to make a point about the differences between some characters...in other words, projectiles vs physical attacks.
See, now that Snake has joined the party, we have one character that only has projectile attacks. On the other hand, characters like Sonic or Captain Falcon only have physical attacks (not counting Sonic's spring). So how do we gauge the positioning of Snake in the list effectively when his style is so vastly different? Personally, I can't use him to save my life but I know he's your main Zero...
This would be where I would split the list: Aerial and Grounded/Projectile and Physical. Then you could have the current list be a "General Ability" list or something.
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~RAWR~
Spoiler Alert!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leves
This pwnage is brought to you by S.S.
Pwnage isn't pwnage unless its S.S. pwnage.
...I hate the little bastard. He could win a debate that the world is flat. ;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma
Welcome aboard to the S.S. Awesome
Awesome list:
Leves, Axtlar, Steph, Marioman, Wario, D_L, icyloopia, Emaa, Wreked, Shoko, Cyan, and prolly some others
Makes more sense to compare them differently. To organize our tier lists, why don't we sort out characters who DO have useful projectile attacks, and characters who do not? In fact, how about we make a list of statistics about all aspects of the character, and rank them out of 5 stars? It would make making the tier list much easier.
Who can't you use? Mario or Snake?
Snake is so overly simple to use and win with, so I generally don't play as him because it just isn't fun.
Mario is great, his fireball REALLY opens up oppurtunities, and is great for openers and disrupting attacks. His aerials are all good, he juggles very well, he's quick, and his cape is the most useful reflector in the game. Good character in my books, and one I enjoy using.
S.S. you make good points. i'll try and get through them all. forgive me if i miss some
on marth vs. sonic
i actually main both. their styles both interest me... i mainly main sonic because i love killing people with my up b haha the spring can stage spike
but anyways, yes all moves are situational, but some characters have more moves than other characters that can be used in more situations... for example i'll go back to sonic/ marth
first the f smash of each.
sonic's is slow, and medium powered, so you can only really use it for the occasional KO above 125ish% when the opponent is either not expecting, or caught in a mistake.
Marth's on the other hand is extremely useful. i've tipper KO'd people (with bad DI) at 35%. its fast, and if NOT tippered you can even use it to fill combo's... my favorite combo so far in the game is a SH-F air, into another SH- f air, into an F smash, into a few more F airs, and finally either another F smash or a D air spike
so i hope that analogy helps. its not that some moves arent situational, its that there are more situations to use them.
and on Meta:
he's verging on broken. not that i mind the challenge, but he can recover from anywhere, and has the craziest infinite ever... up b, into aerial attack into the ground... rinse and repeat till... till the guy dies haha but yes your points are valid
and to Zero on snake:
oooh man i gotta find you a snake video man... SO incredible how creative you can be with his specials... and try boost smashing with him... he's so fun... i don't use him but he's incredibly fun to watch and experiment with
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No items, No johns. get transmorgraphied.
Medium speed I'd say, your usually better off not chasing opponents off the level unless its an easy KO, she has a bit of lag to her and is a bit lighter than she probably should be, but she's really more of a ranged fighter so this is okay. Its also pretty much never a good idea to be above her.
Standard jab combo comes out fast and fairly weak, and progressivly weaker, but if your close the opponent it keeps them in place for a few attacks. Dash attack is the best of the three Pokémon's in terms of power and speed. Ftilt has some good range for a "close range" attack, hard to counter with good damage (around 14%) with great combo ability with Ivysaus bair. Utilt is pretty average, its sort of good for avoiding things though as your vines aren't counted as your hitbox. Dtilt is also meh.
Smashes, Fsmash, awesome. Nice and fast pretty good range, a perfect KO move...its also hard to avoid unless you know Ivysaur, as it has a weird hitbox/range. Usmash AMAZING, slightly impractical, but if you connect with a partly charged one of these the opponent will be shooting into the backround at 50-60%..the hitbox is larger than the attack leads you to believe, so it can suprise too, a little lag though unfortunatly. Dsmash, meh, good for a speedy hit, but thats it.
Great range on her grab, Fthrow and Bthrow are good and can KO at higher %'s, but this is probably one of her weaker area's.
Bullet seed is ridiculously good when you catch them just right, if you get it right the opponent is lucky to get away with 40% and it also sets up so many more moves perfectly, following up with an Uair is deadly. Her teather recovery is so easily countered, so thats definatly a mark down, although it has some suprising range and as an attack its both suprising and strong when the tip connects..try it on an enemy whos leaping towards you, they will not see it coming. Razor leaf is a pretty slow projectile, with an odd arch as it flys..its more useful at med range than long. It is perfect for stopping other projectiles though, infact it stops them and then keeps going.
In the air Ivysaur is a little sluggish, but strong. Uair is basicly an Usmash but weaker, a perfect suprise KO attack, the same with the Dair which can be used to spike or just slam the opponent against the floor. Fair and Nair are pretty quick, Nair is weak but hasn't got much lag, Fair is great for KO's. The problem with Ivysaur in the air is once she begins to get juggled around, your stuck unless your really quick with the air dodge/ DI.
I'll do Squirtle and Charizard in a bit
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[==[ Zero Motivation, The Guy With Cloud Envy ]==]
Snake. I can't use him AT ALL. You pretty much outlined my point when you said he was so easy to use that it's not even fun to play as him anymore, cuz I find him incredibly difficult to use.
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Originally Posted by spiff-ssbb
S.S. you make good points. i'll try and get through them all. forgive me if i miss some
Of course, and thank you ^_^ You make very good points too...hence why I haven't typed "N00B!!!" and left the thread XD
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first the f smash of each.
sonic's is slow, and medium powered, so you can only really use it for the occasional KO above 125ish% when the opponent is either not expecting, or caught in a mistake.
SLOW?!?!?!?!?!?!? Sonic's FSA is SLOW?!? It's VERY fast and I've actually seen people fly off the stage with their prey because they can't handle the speed! And I've made countless KOs with it...
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Marth's on the other hand is extremely useful. i've tipper KO'd people (with bad DI) at 35%. its fast, and if NOT tippered you can even use it to fill combo's... my favorite combo so far in the game is a SH-F air, into another SH- f air, into an F smash, into a few more F airs, and finally either another F smash or a D air spike
I've found it very difficult to hit anyone with Marth's FSA O_o
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so i hope that analogy helps. its not that some moves arent situational, its that there are more situations to use them.
Ok, this may be where we're getting confused...MY point was that different perceptions will alter the situation. So I could be faced with the exact same problem you are and the CPU could make the exact same moves against both of us and I may do something that you would never THINK of doing (or vice-versa of course) but we could both have the same success rate. Now you wouldn't have thought of that move because you think differently then I do.
So I'm not saying they're different depending on the situation itself, but ALSO the player's reaction to that situation...even players with the same skill level.
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and on Meta:
he's verging on broken. not that i mind the challenge, but he can recover from anywhere, and has the craziest infinite ever... up b, into aerial attack into the ground... rinse and repeat till... till the guy dies haha but yes your points are valid
Haha, ironically enough, you just outlined my point...I've NEVER even THOUGHT about TRYING to do anything like that, but you've seen that it's such a good tactic that the ability to do it with Meta Knight makes him almost broken!
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and to Zero on snake:
oooh man i gotta find you a snake video man... SO incredible how creative you can be with his specials... and try boost smashing with him... he's so fun... i don't use him but he's incredibly fun to watch and experiment with
Yeah, I've tried that, and MANY other things...but you pretty much have to have PERFECT aim to really stand much of a chance with him...
__________________
~RAWR~
Spoiler Alert!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leves
This pwnage is brought to you by S.S.
Pwnage isn't pwnage unless its S.S. pwnage.
...I hate the little bastard. He could win a debate that the world is flat. ;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma
Welcome aboard to the S.S. Awesome
Awesome list:
Leves, Axtlar, Steph, Marioman, Wario, D_L, icyloopia, Emaa, Wreked, Shoko, Cyan, and prolly some others
bugger, did I miss the Pokémon Trainer discussion..
