^ though i agree with you that he will be low tier... his over use will not be the cause. we dont need any new ways of gimping him its already super easy... he CANNOT recover from far away. or you can just play him with a hint of the old sex kick ledge guard from melee... without the sex kick. just get close to him and allow him to connect his side special on you... he'll fall to his death... sooo sooo easy

^ hahaha
he has a point though... he just didn't state it well... its based on testing and experience. therefore yes its an accumulative opinion. but its an opinion based on testing and facts. not just favorites.

^I thought it was easy to gimp him too but the reason people hated Ike was because he was 'so great' and they 'couldn't defeat him'. There are COUNTLESS threads and such saying how Ike is godly and everybody agrees. I was under the impression that people didn't notice that's Ike's horizontal recovery is strictly absent. Sure he has invincibility frames in his Up B but it doesn't help at all...

If Ike is near the stage, he will recover regardless. You have to knock him away from the stage out of range up his up + b. He's a heavy character. And a fast one at that. It takes more to send him far. He has good enough recovery.

haha ya thats true there's a lot of fan boys... but they can't defeat him for the sole reason of a lack of strategy... its not THAT tough getting inside on him.. and his up b is no better than Kirby's... why does nobody speak of that? lol they just get excited cuz he can KO at like 40% with an f smash... but how many F smashes do you really see connect? lol you can side step twice before it comes out

and to Zero:
haha thats funny... mmmmmm Jessica Alba hahaha

and to your next post:
you can combo him off the map pretty easy. especially since his aerials (barring b air) have alot of start up lag.

Yea he has this swinging motion to start his moves. SSLLOOWW.

^ Exactly, so why use any? Air-dodge, or Up+ B (or if a chance, even Neutral B). The super armor frames will save you, but not the enemy. Ike isn't an aerial character, so why even try?

Oh, and about his smash attacks: The range, strength, and the area they cover MORE than make up for the speed. (His down-smash is quite quick, though). His up Smash covers every angle. His forward smash covers above him and anything a good distance in front of him. It might be the closest in speed of any F-Smash to Dedede's, (but still noticably faster), but at least if you hit with any part of the attack it'll send you flying as much as any other part of the attack. (Dedede's requires you hit with the mallet)

That's a better statement to support tiers. Better than flames. But let me go deeper into it...who does the testing? is it possible at all for anyone to objectively create tiers taking into account all the random variables?

So cumulative opinion defines it best. You've all been agreeing about Ike's gimping, but I think that he can recover quite well, and sending him that far of the stage takes time. And he doesn't need to rely on his fsmash to kill, his fspecial and aerial gain him distance and cause great damage.

Since you've been discussing a potentail low tier, how about a potential high tier? Lucas? I've seen a lot agree with him being great, does anybody disagree on that?

Bowser is vastly improved over melee. His ass-attack kills at mid percentages, and does alot of damage. His side grab is great, does good damage, can be used in the air, is quick, and can be used as a suicide-kill move. Flamethrower is good for stopping approaches as it can be angled. Recovery is long for heaviest character in the game. Forward smash has super armor frames and is a multihit attack that does incredible damage and knockback (It's over 40% charged). Giga Bowser is decent, but the fact that he can still take damage and it's duration is very short ultimately makes it a bad final smash.

PLEASE DO NOT INCORPORATE FINAL SMASHES INTO THE DISCUSSION. MAJOR TOURNAMENTS WILL NOT EMPLOY ANY ITEMS AT ALL AND SMASH BALLS COUNT AS ITEMS.

THEY WILL MOST LIKELY BE PLAYED ON EITHER FINAL DESTINATION OR BATTLEFIELD, SO KEEP THAT IN MIND.

THINK ABOUT SPEED, JUMP HEIGHT, KNOCKBACK, WEIGHT, DAMAGE, COMBOS, AND GLITCHES WHEN DISCUSSING CHARACTERS.

Follow these guidelines please, as Tier Lists are huge factors when deciding on characters to play as in tournaments.

yes this is true he has great range. but all moves have start up lag except b air. and when i was talking about air moves it was because i was talking about his inability to get out of combos. neutral b only has super armor AFTER you've released the button and once he's into the move so it can't be used in the context of what i meant.

ps. d3's mallet is HUGE

to anax:
it doesn't really take that much time to gimp him. a ground attack sending him off the stage. one or two aerials following him. chill in front of him... and he's done.

about a high tier ya lucas looks good... his moves are really hard to side step... you gotta hard sheild the first hit first. marth'll be high too still i think.

and for testing its usually teams of pros. smash board back roomers if your familiar of the term.

to mushroom:
peach i used to love in melee. haven't played too many vets in brawl yet cant lie. but she looks good. bowser is projected top tier. and falco i know nothing about. what do you think?

There are only a few characters that can follow a character off the stage with TWO aerials and recover safely.

Besides, being a good Ike user myself, when I'm pushed off the edge I either fast fall out of any aerial combos or attempted attacks, and then use my aether. Or, alternatively, I could just smack on my Aether right away, in between aerial assault. Super armor will save me, and I'll fly to the ledge.

To the other characters:

Peach was amazing in Melee. Her down smash nerf is a terrible shame. Her forward smash was never really great though (still satisfying to make someone fly with a gold club). Her up tilt seems to have been buffed (I don't even know what it was in melee... but it definately wasn't this). Her down tilt is still good. Side tilt lacks range but it's a solid hit. Peach bomber seems to carry you a longer distance and is safer than it's melee counterpart. Just seems better in my opinion. She's also been graced with, like in melee, the ability to float, which is similar to having multiple jumps (with different advantages and disadvantages of course), which is very handy. Her mushrooms are still annoying as hell. Toad counterattack seems stronger. Umbrella is safer.

Positive changes except her down smash, which was amazing in the last game.

Falco - To me, probably the best star fox universe character. That's basically all there is to be said. Lmfao.

-Please edit your post instead of double posting. ~Mitch2025

^ no no... most characters can. brawl is super floaty. single jump into an aerial, double jump into another. air control towards stage after connecting... recovery move... hell i've done it with Yoshi lol.

and if aether is your side special then thats what i mean by take the hit and auto gimp... if you connect it you just fall... so if you connect it too far out then ... you die... if thats not aether then forgive me i dont know his move set names.

about peach:
her turnips got a nerf to. the powerful ones with a different face dont come out as often as in melee.

Aether is the up special that Ike has.

And I'm used to jigglypuff-type of chasing out of the stage (which is basically just juggling your ass sideways off of the screen), so I didn't know you could do that. I'm a meteor-smash freak, they're the most rewarding kills, so if anything I go for them.

And yeah, Peach's turnips did get a nerf. They also disappear if they hit a sheild and whatnot (so they can't be thrown again and again like a Mr Saturn).

^ haha thats funny and ironic cuz jiggly has no meteor smash haha
ya my mains are toon link first. then yoshi/jiggly/game and watch and they can all get two aerials in before having to retreat back to the stage... toon link can get like four lol

don't you find ike gets gimped a lot though when your closer to the side KO area?