Low Tier Characters ftw

anax4aero

Of the three pokemon, Ivysaur is easily the worst, especially when it comes to match-ups, so as a result most competitive brawlers would prefer to skip her. Squirtle and Charizard are 80% of the time more effective in getting the job done.

I'm not saying Ivysaur is bad. Personally, I like Ivysaur and I try to use all three equally. But sometimes risking Ivysaur in matches were Squirtle and Charizard own is not worth it.

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SSBfreakCK

Must be called Baton Passing, as it's an actual pokemon move that fits said technique. ... Even though naming the technique after a fellow Brawler is also good. >.>

... Aside from that, as GC said, it's a shame this can only be taken advantage of on a few stages. But hey, that just gives a self-helping counterpick for PT. It really is unfair that PT's are forced to switch after awhile, and just get owned unless they just took a stock off the opponent (unless it was, say, a meteor smash with Charizard). It's still helpful either way, though.

... It'd just be easier if everyone had homebrew and had the pokemon are never tired code. But, meh. >.>

IVYSAUR IS BEAST IN BRAWL+!

Starter pokemon, Ivysaur included, are male 95% of the time. I doubt Ivysaur is a she. [/completely useless nerd fact]

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anax4aero

Although I agree that Pokemon fatigue and forced switch often put PT in a bad position, overall I think that it is helpful to know all three for match-up purposes and such, since having three characters within a match at your disposal is quite benefitial. I can see why Sakurai-san made this system, seeing what happened to zelda/sheik.

Nevertheless, I do agree that it would have been nicer to give people the option to pick one pokemon and stick with it, even thought it would not affect me since I like the PT system. Also, fatigue does not affect speed or movement, meaning that for general defensive purposes fatigue is not severely harmful, just inconvenient. I've seen people who keep fighting even when their pokemon look like they're dying.

Lastly, most people refer to Ivysaur as she/her, so I guess it just stuck.

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SSBfreakCK

Fatique is a problem in the counter pick department. Odds of 3 stocking someone before your poke becomes fatiqued are nearly impossible when facing someone of equal or greater level, after all. For an example, let's say Squirtle has an advantage over G&W (again, just an example, I doubt he does). Squirtle will obviously have to switch out eventually, or face having a lot of problems KOing someone. Being in a position where you easily can't KO the second lightest character in the game is pretty sad. So, now you have to switch.

However, Ivysaur has a disadvantage against G&W, meaning you'll have to switch to Charizard. This leaves you open for an attack while you make two switches, one attack guarenteed to land, unless you (can) take advantage of a Baton Pass. Or let's say you're in the worst position; G&W has an advantage over both Ivysaur and Charizard. Not only could you get hurt on the switch, but you'll be at a disadvantage until you can switch back to Squirtle.

A lot of hypothetical nonsense, yes, but they're very possible situation(s). One of my points point being, fatigue is a hindrance, and so is switching. My biggest point, though, is that PT can't counter pick properly if the said counter pick can't stay out the entire match. Having three different characters to use is only helpful at the start of a single match, where you don't know who your opponent will select. After that, you'll probably only need one poke to "counter pick", even though it's only a temporary solution.

Homebrew is incredibly handy at this point, so you don't have to switch since you'll never be fatigued. I feel this is a major reason why PT will never make it high on tier lists. If your character can't counter pick properly, you're in a bad position in competitive play.

This is a bit off topic, but I completely support homebrew usage in any and all tournies (big tournies usually do, anyways), and especially pokes never becoming fatigued.

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anax4aero

I believe that there should be tournaments with both possibilities, original brawl and Brawl+. Fatigue and forced switch are a hindrance that came with Pokemon Trainer, and it's a hindrance for Pokemon Trainer mains to deal with, just like each character has its downs. And I really don't mind the increase in difficulty, because the reason I use this character is because I want that challenge.

Still, I am open to playing Brawl+, but thinking of it separately as I think of Melee. Also, fatigue or not, Squirtle can still work its mindgames and gimping, two things that make him a great character. Even a fresh squirtle has trouble killing due to the difficulty in landing an Usmash, so the only killing move left, besides gimping, is Down throw. It is possible to land enough percentage, throw, and switch to Ivy who has an easy time finishing enemies off, regardless of match-ups.

But, like you say, all of this is so hypothetical that it borders on the edge of useless.

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GCommander

I consider all 3 Pokemon Male.
I fought a really good Ivysaur player on AiB yesterday.
If you are using Ivysaur and you launched your opponent pretty far could you have enough time to Batton Pass and Meteor Smash with Charizard? And you are standing by the edge of the stage.

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bulbacos

Sonic - sonic sucks
Sheik - sheik is good
Bowser-bowser rocks
Zelda - zelda is one of the best
Pokémon Trainer - sucks badly
Ike - sucks
Lucas - sucks
Mario - hes ok
Ness- hes ok 2
Yoshi- yoshi rocks
Samus- one of the worst
Jigglypuff - 2nd worst
Captain Falcon - hes ok
Link - link is the second best for me
Ganondorf- sucks

there is definately something wrong with this list

GCommander

You really don't know what you are talking about do you? Ganondorf sucks? Have you ever played a skilled Ganondorf player before? Do you play skilled people because it doesn't look like you do.

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anax4aero

First of all, welcome to wiichat.
Second, if I were you I would avoid posting such useless comments, as they add nothing to the conversation, and as far as I know no one here knows you well enough to really care about your opinion.
Third, this is a discussion thread, not an opinion thread. Meaning that if you want to say your opinion, back it up with facts, stats, and such so that people can take you seriously, and so we can all have a mature discussion.
Lastly, that list has been worked on for months, it's the third version so far, and it was done by people who probably know about this game a lot better than you. Or so I am assuming from such a noobish comment.

@GC: I would not want to do that for a couple of reasons. As you may remember, Charizard is left with no jumps from batton passing. Also, if ivysaur sends people far enough, it is much more effective to just gimp their recovery by abusing Bair, Nair, or simply using Vine Whip to pull off an effective edge-hog.
Batton Passing is a potentially awesome technique, but I wouldn't use it in every possible situation, or people will learn to counter it.

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GCommander

Did you try doing the spike?
You know how you could dashattack cancel with Snake, Link, Wario, Falco, ect but could you do it with Squirtle?

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anax4aero

Um...I can't try anything personally because my wii is not with me
(it sucks -_-')

Squirtle has something much better, which is shellshifting. You know, that animation where he goes back in his shell when turning around quickly. Experienced players use this a lot, and it can be used to do better smashes (called Hydroplanning where you go from a shellshift to a Usmash). It is also used for mindgames, to grab and avoid, and also to do something almost like wavedashing, which happens when you go from a shellshift to a backwards crawl.

I probably explained myself poorly, but if you really want to know there's a list of PT advanced techniques on smashboards. Makes you really value squirtle.

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GCommander

I forgot that you are not home.

I ****ing hate fighting Squirtles that run back and forth. It's confusing because he is fast.

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anax4aero

Ike and Yoshi in balanced Brawl:

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GCommander

Ike in Balaced brawl is so badass. *I hit myself in the head* "Why I'm I hardly using Ike now?!"

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Cuomo

Lucas is my main character, but I can hold my own with Sheik and Ganondorf.
There was a quote I recently heard about Metaknight that gave me a chuckle:
"If you beat someone that is using Metaknight, you don't beat Metaknight; you just beat the person playing Metaknight."
=p

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anax4aero

Welcome to wiichat, first of all.
I´ll add you to the list. Cool to have a Lucas around, a character with a lot of potential, I think the only thing that has kept him from higher use is grab release combos.

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Cuomo

Yeah, sort of a shame regarding Lucas; for all the things he has going for him (useful/innovative specials, zap jumping, wavebouncing...), he has just as many drawbacks (longer grab release, low priority, cumbersome tether grab...).

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GCommander

Dammit that quote is true =(
Metaknight is just too good but I believe that Snake should be at the top of the tier list

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anax4aero

It's a question of who's easier to use. Snake takes practice, MK not a lot. Therefore, sad people who want to win are more likely to use MK than Snake. Meaning that MK's metagame stays strong from so many people using him.
Also, when most people start maining a character, usually the first problem is "how can ______ character beat MK?", meaning MK has stronger match-ups than snake. I can dare fight Snake with PT and Wolf, for MK I had to think of another character to use because it's too difficult with PT and somewhat of a challenge with Wolf.

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GCommander

The only thing that you need to know when using Metaknight is aiming his recovery moves.
Snake takes practice like all characters.

Link is like the hardest character to become good with in my opinion.

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