Dorkfish's Tier List

Dorkfish · 08-03-2008, 09:30 AM

Well, since spiff made one, I'm going to make one too :P.

Note that this is based entirely on matchups and individual character stats, nothing else

If you have any questions about it ask me. I will not change it based on your opinion, keep that in mind, but I'm open to your opinion.

Every time the matchup chart on smashboards is updated, this too will be.

Top

1. Meta Knight
2. Snake

High.

3. Toon Link
4. Game and Watch
5. Falco
6. ROB
7. Pit
8. Marth
9. Olimar

Middle:

10. Zelda
11. Wolf
12. Lucario
13. ZSS
14. Wario
15. Pikachu
16. Ice Climbers
17. Shiek
18. Kirby
19. DK
20. Diddy
21. Fox

Low:

22. Ivysaur
23. Lucas
24. D3
25. Squirtle
26. Link
27. Sonic
28. Ness
29. Peach
30. Mario
31. Luigi
32. Ike
33. Jiggz

Bottom:

34. Charizard
35. Yoshi
36. Samus
37. Bowser
38. Captain Falcon

Ganon
39-Ganon
40-Dorkfish

ZEROLAZAR · 08-03-2008, 09:37 AM

I uh had something written out but then Wiichat went down.

I'll just leave it at I think some of the characters here are a little bogus, and that I think it's dumb to rank everyone according to ONE chart. If you compile many charts and take the facts from each of them, then maybe we have a tier list. Other than that this is still a little too opinionated (especially since TL is higher than G&W, although G&W has more good matchups than TL last time I looked).

anax4aero · 08-03-2008, 10:05 AM

since you based it on matchups, how did you decide when to separate top from high, from high to middle, etc.?

Dorkfish · 08-03-2008, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anax4aero

since you based it on matchups, how did you decide when to separate top from high, from high to middle, etc.?

When there was a gap between matchup stats. Really I based it on Good:Bad ratio and who the Good matchups where on, but there were some major gaps in the Ratios, so thats when I seperated them

anax4aero · 08-03-2008, 10:17 AM

Well, it's a nice tier list but I'm not much into it.

why? I understand the intention of following statistics from a chart on matchups which is mostly accurate. However, I also believe that such a chart fails due to statistical bias...it is based only on what the authors of the chart have seen or heard regarding matchups. Also, that chart doesn't take skill into account as, for example, ganon may have suffered due to lack of popularity and general lack of knowledge of how to use him.

But I do not want to begin a whole new conversation about that. I do admit that there are many parallels between this list and others, and I do not think it's due to coincidence. In regards of this, I think what you have organized here does a good service to the understanding of a brawl tier list. I strongly suggest this tier list and Spiff's are both used to rate character performance, and also that you call this something that's not "tier" list, because argument probably would ensue as to what defines tiers, etc.

in conclusion,

Dorkfish · 08-03-2008, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anax4aero

Well, it's a nice tier list but I'm not much into it.

why? I understand the intention of following statistics from a chart on matchups which is mostly accurate. However, I also believe that such a chart fails due to statistical bias...it is based only on what the authors of the chart have seen or heard regarding matchups. Also, that chart doesn't take skill into account as, for example, ganon may have suffered due to lack of popularity and general lack of knowledge of how to use him.

But I do not want to begin a whole new conversation about that. I do admit that there are many parallels between this list and others, and I do not think it's due to coincidence. In regards of this, I think what you have organized here does a good service to the understanding of a brawl tier list. I strongly suggest this tier list and Spiff's are both used to rate character performance, and also that you call this something that's not "tier" list, because argument probably would ensue as to what defines tiers, etc.

in conclusion,

It is based on the data collected from individual matchup threads. The guys on smashboards are super nerds when it comes to this stuff, none of the information is biased at all.

ZEROLAZAR · 08-03-2008, 10:21 AM

A tier list will always be biased, as well as a person's choice to use a certain character of that list because of their standing, and therefor biasing the list even moreso.

Like, for example, I think Jigglypuff and Craptain Failcon suck much harder than Ganon (I don't think Ganon sucks). I'm also bewildered at ZSS's placing, as well as D3's and Link's. Your tier list and Spiff's are very clashing, and this chart must be very out of date or something, because last time I looked Dedede was high tier and Link was low. And Bowser wasn't at the absolute bottom.

Dorkfish · 08-03-2008, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZEROLAZAR

I uh had something written out but then Wiichat went down.

I'll just leave it at I think some of the characters here are a little bogus, and that I think it's dumb to rank everyone according to ONE chart. If you compile many charts and take the facts from each of them, then maybe we have a tier list. Other than that this is still a little too opinionated (especially since TL is higher than G&W, although G&W has more good matchups than TL last time I looked).

But Game and Watch has more bad matchups, and Toon Link does better against more high tier characters than Game and Watch does. Its not necessarily the amount of characters he has good matchups against, its who the characters are.

D3 is countered against way too many people to be considered high tier, and link does well against other characters in his tier. D3 will probably be moved up when I do a bit more research, he does have potential, but as of now D3 is where he is.

I don't like Spiffs tier list myself. I have no clue what he based his on personally.

ZSS's placing was alcohol induced, I will change it in the morning.

Also, the tier list is based entirely off of that chart, and again, it will change as the chart changes.

ZEROLAZAR · 08-03-2008, 10:24 AM

^ That makes sense in a way. According to that, TL would fare better in a tournament because of everyone flocking to the top tier characters. But then when a lower tier character comes along, TL is at a disadvantage. So it goes both ways.

Again, that means that we'd have to go through a discussion of who's worth the most points when it comes to a good matchup. If this character beats Snake, that's +15! But if he beats jiggly, it's only +1!

Dorkfish · 08-03-2008, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZEROLAZAR

^ That makes sense in a way. According to that, TL would fare better in a tournament because of everyone flocking to the top tier characters. But then when a lower tier character comes along, TL is at a disadvantage. So it goes both ways.

Again, that means that we'd have to go through a discussion of who's worth the most points when it comes to a good matchup. If this character beats Snake, that's +15! But if he beats jiggly, it's only +1!

I don't know what your talking about in the first part. Besides, Toon Link only has 2 disadvantageous matchups, which is one of the reasons why he is Top Tier. Another is because he does well against ALOT of other high tier characters. Advantageous against GW, neutrals against every other high tier except for Olimar.

anax4aero · 08-03-2008, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorkfish

But Game and Watch has more bad matchups, and Toon Link does better against more high tier characters than Game and Watch does. Its not necessarily the amount of characters he has good matchups against, its who the characters are.

So then stats are being used based on previously made assumptions. You are developing facts from theories that still need time to prove themselves. A character doesn't deserve to be higher because he beats a high tier character, because perhaps that high tier character may not really belong there.
You follow me? In this process of making a tier list you can never finish gathering data, so nothing is conclusive. The best bet, as I said before in a rather compromising paragraph you perhaps ignored, is to take this as a source of information, which along with spiff's and other's can provide more clarity as to where characters belong.

And like ZL, I also think cpt. falcon does fail compared to ganon.

Dorkfish · 08-03-2008, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anax4aero

So then stats are being used based on previously made assumptions. You are developing facts from theories that still need time to prove themselves. A character doesn't deserve to be higher because he beats a high tier character, because perhaps that high tier character may not really belong there.
You follow me? In this process of making a tier list you can never finish gathering data, so nothing is conclusive. The best bet, as I said before in a rather compromising paragraph you perhaps ignored, is to take this as a source of information, which along with spiff's and other's can provide more clarity as to where characters belong.

And like ZL, I also think cpt. falcon does fail compared to ganon.

Spiffs is based on his opinion and his opinion alone, whereas mine is based on the general findings of the ENTIRE smash community. Whos is biased again?

anax4aero · 08-03-2008, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorkfish

Spiffs is based on his opinion and his opinion alone, whereas mine is based on the general findings of the smash community. Whos is biased again?

That's why spiff is allowing voting, to create general consensus. Your list, on the other hand, would cease to be logical with voting, since that kills the statistical background.

Dorkfish · 08-03-2008, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anax4aero

That's why spiff is allowing voting, to create general consensus. Your list, on the other hand, would cease to be logical with voting, since that kills the statistical background.

I'd rather take the opinion of tourney going smashboards goers than online only Wiichat goers. I based my opinion on the larger, more intellegent smash community over Wiichat, which would be the logical choice when making something such as a tier list.

Dorkfish · 08-03-2008, 10:42 AM

My list is basically a compilation of data based on data found by someone who did extensive research for every character's individual matchups. There is no "biased opinion" about it. Its pure statistics.

ZEROLAZAR · 08-03-2008, 10:42 AM

Them being more overall intelligent is questionable.

If you take the opinions of only tourney go-ers, you're going to get a tourney-win based tier list. We don't want that as we've stated numerous times, right? I totally agree with what Anax was saying, and it was what I tried to state in my post, but maybe it was a little too complex in how I worded it. :P

anax4aero · 08-03-2008, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorkfish

I'd rather take the opinion of tourney going smashboards goers than online only Wiichat goers. I based my opinion on the larger, more intellegent smash community over Wiichat, which would be the logical choice when making something such as a tier list.

writing tip of the day:
do not insult the intelligence of your readers.

Now, I'll repeat a third time. Both lists are valuable in their given context. Yours has no more merit than Spiff's because they are based on different ideas. The ideal thing is to take both into account. If I have to say this a fourth time, I will cease to be so compromising.

Last thing: the majority is NEVER more intelligent. NEVER.

Dorkfish · 08-03-2008, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZEROLAZAR

Them being more overall intelligent is questionable.

If you take the opinions of only tourney go-ers, you're going to get a tourney-win based tier list. We don't want that as we've stated numerous times, right? I totally agree with what Anax was saying, and it was what I tried to state in my post, but maybe it was a little too complex in how I worded it. :P

Its not tourney based, its matchup based. Matchups=/=Tourney results.