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  1. #281
    Banned Koukin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y0SH1 X
    Religion is destroying the world.
    Well, yeah. That's kinda obvious. It already has. xP

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  3. #282
    Rawr! Bow To Da Masta! Y0SH1 X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koukin
    Well, yeah. That's kinda obvious. It already has. xP
    yep.yep.
    im christian....but i dont really like religion...i just want to have a good relationship with God.


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  4. #283
    A li'l bit different Squall7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy
    Or option 4: There is a God and allowed the girl to be shot but did not want it to occur and the killer was not part of anyone's plan.
    And what reasoning is there behind this? If the almight God didn't want something to happen, it would not happen, surely...

    The girl and the killer are connected. Either both were God's plan or neither was.


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  5. #284
    Senior Member Skippy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squall7
    And what reasoning is there behind this? If the almight God didn't want something to happen, it would not happen, surely...
    Things happen all the time that God doesn't want to happen. He didn't want Adam and Eve to sin and spread death to mankind. He wants everyone to follow him but few do. He doesn't want sickness and depraved humans to wreak havoc. He doesn't want terrorists. He doesn't want death at all. He wants peace and prosperity. He wants unity. He doesn't want Satan's influence on mankind.

    Sometimes bad things happen to good people by random chance -
    Ecclesiastes 9:11 "I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all."

    However, just because things do happen that he doesn't want to happen does not mean he is powerless or that he will never step in and rights the wrongs of Satan's world.

    The girl and the killer are connected. Either both were God's plan or neither was.
    Ok, neither of them are.
    God doesn't want people to die and doesn't want people to kill other people.

  6. #285
    A li'l bit different Squall7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy
    Things happen all the time that God doesn't want to happen. He didn't want Adam and Eve to sin and spread death to mankind. He wants everyone to follow him but few do. He doesn't want sickness and depraved humans to wreak havoc. He doesn't want terrorists. He doesn't want death at all. He wants peace and prosperity. He wants unity. He doesn't want Satan's influence on mankind.
    Funny how some feel they can speak on behalf of God. What you're desribing is human's own wants and desires about the world, not of God's.

    Sometimes bad things happen to good people by random chance -
    Ecclesiastes 9:11 "I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all."
    All it says is that sometimes people don't get what they deserve. However, the previous bit may deem that quote to be infering that God is in the little things that make up chance - hence chance is based on God, not the reverse:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecclesiates 9:10
    Cultivare the eye that finds God in ordinary things. Some of you are expecting a blinding revelation of God to come to you in the future - and it may well happen - but don't focus so much on what may lie ahead that you miss what God is doing in your ordinary moments.
    However, just because things do happen that he doesn't want to happen does not mean he is powerless or that he will never step in and rights the wrongs of Satan's world.
    So, what you're basically saying is that when he chooses to, he can come in at any time and right wrongs. Why didn't he do that in the many cases in the past? There's been slaughter of countless people, there's been genocide in more than a single occassion, why does he not interfere with those wrongs?

    Ok, neither of them are.
    God doesn't want people to die and doesn't want people to kill other people.
    So, human actions can be beyond God? People can do what they're not meant to do, what they have no right to do, that they can harm God's humble and obiding creations without consequences from God him/herself?

    Most mere mortals have to cope with the basis of what they can literally do, and what they can't. For an immortal to have a desire for something not to happen, and for that thing to happen in the first place undermines the desire and more importantly the morality of the immortal.

    Sorry, It's not that I deny the possibility of God, it's just I question the assumptions people make of him/her.


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  7. #286
    Senior Member Skippy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Skippy
    Things happen all the time that God doesn't want to happen. He didn't want Adam and Eve to sin and spread death to mankind. He wants everyone to follow him but few do. He doesn't want sickness and depraved humans to wreak havoc. He doesn't want terrorists. He doesn't want death at all. He wants peace and prosperity. He wants unity. He doesn't want Satan's influence on mankind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squall7
    Funny how some feel they can speak on behalf of God. What you're desribing is human's own wants and desires about the world, not of God's.
    Have you actually read the Bible? The whole thing is about what God wants for us, what he hopes we will do and not do, why, and what the consequences are either way. I can quote a handful of verses if it would help. But that also depends on your feelings toward the Bible. I believe it is the inspired word of God, so if it's recorded in the Bible that he doesn't want us to die, then I take it to mean that that's what he really wants and not just the desire of a human.


    So, what you're basically saying is that when he chooses to, he can come in at any time and right wrongs. Why didn't he do that in the many cases in the past? There's been slaughter of countless people, there's been genocide in more than a single occassion, why does he not interfere with those wrongs?
    God is essentially letting things run along with us in charge for the time being. That will not always be the case though. And those who have suffered and died in the past will have a much better life, while those who committed such atrocities will have none.


    So, human actions can be beyond God?
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. We have been granted free will. We can do or not do whatever we want, regardless of what God says.


    People can do what they're not meant to do, what they have no right to do, that they can harm God's humble and obiding creations ...
    Yes

    ... without consequences from God him/herself?
    No

  8. #287
    Nintendo Nerd Elfman's Avatar
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  9. #288
    A li'l bit different Squall7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy
    Have you actually read the Bible? The whole thing is about what God wants for us, what he hopes we will do and not do, why, and what the consequences are either way. I can quote a handful of verses if it would help. But that also depends on your feelings toward the Bible. I believe it is the inspired word of God, so if it's recorded in the Bible that he doesn't want us to die, then I take it to mean that that's what he really wants and not just the desire of a human.
    At best the bible is an interpretation of God's will put into book form from people that are fallible and have bias. It's then translated into a few languages before appearing in English. It's then interpretted by the reader. In essence, what you quote from is a very much diluted version of what (at best) God's meant to have said. On top of that, you're saying that you (a fallible being) is capable and has the right to say on behalf of a immortal, all-seeing, all-knowing, infallible being, that you know what he thinks about these things? Do you see the flaw in your arguement?

    God is essentially letting things run along with us in charge for the time being. That will not always be the case though. And those who have suffered and died in the past will have a much better life, while those who committed such atrocities will have none.
    He's "letting us run things"? It explains why attrocities happen, but it wouldn't account for the fact that we seem to be screwing our world up. If you see your child doing something he shouldn't be doing, because he will be hurt by it, do you stand by and hope they don't hurt themselves too badly, or do you say "no, don't do that"? As for the better life part, that's a gamble on if God (and afterlife) exists. If it doesn't you've wasted your precious one-time only life on worshipping a concept which doesn't even have a real form, based on man's desire to control man.

    Yes
    Why can they?

    No
    This bit is debatable, is it the work of God or the work of the Devil? God's often used as a tool to either bail people out of danger (God spoke to me, or it was a miricle, a gift from God etc), or to condemn people (you're gay, and God hates you, and that give us the right to hate you too etc...).

    Personally I feel that people need to get the concept of God straight in their head, before even trying to influence others.


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  10. #289
    Senior Member Skippy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squall7
    At best the bible is an interpretation of God's will put into book form from people that are fallible and have bias. It's then translated into a few languages before appearing in English. It's then interpretted by the reader. In essence, what you quote from is a very much diluted version of what (at best) God's meant to have said. On top of that, you're saying that you (a fallible being) is capable and has the right to say on behalf of a immortal, all-seeing, all-knowing, infallible being, that you know what he thinks about these things? Do you see the flaw in your arguement?
    It's not really a flaw per se. It goes to how we each view the Bible. I view it as the inspired word of God. You appear to not and this makes the discussion difficult because we don't really have a common foundation to go off of. My points will be based on the Bible, yours are based on your own ideas which may be influenced to a certain extent by the Bible, but also by other philosphies that are far outside the Bible. But even if you account for translational and copyist errors over the years, the concepts and events are still there (and as his written inspired word, I believe that God has made sure that the conceptsm events, and ideas in the Bible have been preserved even if the exact to-the-letter text is gone. The entire Old Testament deals with what God told Israel to and what would happen if they did and if they didn't do it. And time and time again they didn't do it and suffered the consequences. God tells us what he wants us to do and we have the free will to either go along with it or not.


    He's "letting us run things"? It explains why attrocities happen, but it wouldn't account for the fact that we seem to be screwing our world up.
    The reason we're screwing up the world is because we were not created to rule this world and lack the capabilities to do so.

    Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.
    Ecclesiastes 8:9 All this I have seen, and there was an applying of my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, during the time that man has dominated man to his injury.

    Adam and Eve lived under God's rulership until they caved into Satan's temptation and were cast out. They were on their own at that point, and by extension all their descendents down to this day.

    If you see your child doing something he shouldn't be doing, because he will be hurt by it, do you stand by and hope they don't hurt themselves too badly, or do you say "no, don't do that"?
    You teach your child beforehand what not to do in order to not get hurt. This is what God does. He does not force us to comply though, and if we don't, we shouldn't be surprised if we get hurt.


    As for the better life part, that's a gamble on if God (and afterlife) exists. If it doesn't you've wasted your precious one-time only life on worshipping a concept which doesn't even have a real form, based on man's desire to control man.
    If man is using religion to control man, then they are not following God.


    Why can they?
    Free will. We can choose to obey God or not. There are consequences for either course of action.


    This bit is debatable, is it the work of God or the work of the Devil?
    The bad consequences from our actions are our own work, and by extension the Devil's since he is the original source of our sinful, imperfect nature.

    God's often used as a tool to either bail people out of danger (God spoke to me, or it was a miricle, a gift from God etc), or to condemn people (you're gay, and God hates you, and that give us the right to hate you too etc...).

    And people that make expressions like that are generally lashing out and making statements not supported by the Bible.

  11. #290
    A li'l bit different Squall7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy
    It's not really a flaw per se. It goes to how we each view the Bible. I view it as the inspired word of God. You appear to not and this makes the discussion difficult because we don't really have a common foundation to go off of. My points will be based on the Bible, yours are based on your own ideas which may be influenced to a certain extent by the Bible, but also by other philosphies that are far outside the Bible. But even if you account for translational and copyist errors over the years, the concepts and events are still there (and as his written inspired word, I believe that God has made sure that the conceptsm events, and ideas in the Bible have been preserved even if the exact to-the-letter text is gone. The entire Old Testament deals with what God told Israel to and what would happen if they did and if they didn't do it. And time and time again they didn't do it and suffered the consequences. God tells us what he wants us to do and we have the free will to either go along with it or not.
    1. It would be a short discussion if we both worked from the view that the bible is always correct, without taking into the equation the context in which it was written.
    2. Take even a modern language today. Translate a phrase from English into another language and back. It won't be the same, and will often make little sense.
    3. How does God tell us what we should do? It's society that tells us what we should do. It's our own sub-conscious mind that tell us what to do. Everyone but God (directly) tell us what to do and what not to do.

    The reason we're screwing up the world is because we were not created to rule this world and lack the capabilities to do so.
    Actually, it's because we began to value materialism over human, animal, plant and the general environment. Civilisation through the ages has indocrinated people into believing that life is something that can be used, thrown away, especially for the purpose of accumulation and collecting things.

    Adam and Eve lived under God's rulership until they caved into Satan's temptation and were cast out. They were on their own at that point, and by extension all their descendents down to this day.
    Not entirely sure what the point of that is, other than to say that it was all Adam and Eve's fault (blaming the world's ills on two people who were supposedly duped into doing something wrong - which could be ficticious anyway, is not very helpful). Blame shouldn't be passed down. The lesson is to learn self-control. Nothing more.

    You teach your child beforehand what not to do in order to not get hurt. This is what God does. He does not force us to comply though, and if we don't, we shouldn't be surprised if we get hurt.
    So before you send you child off to school, do you brief them on every danger that could possibly happen to them? No. When dangers arise, you tell them the best way to avoid being hurt. Sure, we may tell our kids, "if someone offers you something...", but in the end, there still has to be that threat there in the first place for us to know what dangers are out there.

    Besides, you're refering to advice from the bible as advice from God. Please read up on "simulacra and simulations" to see why this is false (The representation is not the actual thing. God's word is not God's word. The bible merely represents God, it is not God and therefore is flawed in itself).

    If man is using religion to control man, then they are not following God.
    Indeed. One does not have to be Christian to read the bible. However, that doesn't stop people from posing as God-followers and instructing people how to live their lives and such for their own benefit.

    Free will. We can choose to obey God or not. There are consequences for either course of action.
    But what is Free-will? We cannot have free will, because everything we base our descisions on is determined on what has come before. Thus we are literally trapped. If someone has been abused by a preist, and has a certain personality, they will choose in many occassions, not to follow God. In essence, our decissions are based on subjectivity - how we are, how we are feeling at that time, what is happening, rather than objectively - why we are inclined to make a certain decision, and whether it would be best to do something/not to do something. And this isn't even going into the concept of neurosis, conditioning and phobias.


    The bad consequences from our actions are our own work, and by extension the Devil's since he is the original source of our sinful, imperfect nature.
    If the bad consequences of our actions are from our own work, then why is it that good things can happen to bad people? Surely the concept of consequences is independent of the concept of Evil? Bad things also happen to good people. Why is it deemed such that when:
    1. a bad thing happens to a bad person, it's justice and he deserved it.
    2. a good thing happens to a bad person, but we'll wait until he gets his just deserts.
    3. a bad thing happens to a good person, but those things happen anyway.
    4. a good thing happens to a good person, and that's because they deserved it.

    Now, surely implementing God into this is a bad idea - either he allows the injustices as well as the justices, or he exercises no control over anything. In essence, he stays out of people's way. If God did stay out of people's way, surely we would have literally no evidence to support the existence of God, even from so-called accounts in the bible? The only explanation if God were real - He did get involved, but he doesn't anymore. So in effect, it's God's lack of intervention that is to blame from attrocities, and not the people's who wholeheartedly believe that they have a special bond with God, in which what they do is always in God's master plan.

    And people that make expressions like that are generally lashing out and making statements not supported by the Bible.
    Yet, they insist as much as you're insisting now, that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Hence the problem. How do I determine if you're right or the person down the street is right? Why do I believe what I currently believe? Because it's what I've figured out for myself. It isn't backed up by anything other than my own opinions and experiences. When people begin to feel that God is on their side, they see it as a license to do anything they wish.


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