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  1. #101
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    This thread is longer than the Bible. Sheesh.

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  3. #102
    幸せ雑& Close's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by White-Wolf

    It comes down to, that god cannot be simultaneously all love, and all powerful and all knowing. Maybe in a world without humans, he could be, but when dealing with humans, he has given up one of these things.
    And why can't He be ?

  4. #103
    WiiChat Member White-Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiicanchangetheworld
    And why can't He be ?
    I already said why at least 7 times, were you reading? maybe you should reread my posts about free will. Or better yet Maybe you should tell me how knowing the future does not inhibit free will, that we can discuss this. Or how god CAN be these things, through an argument that doesnít involve something concerning belief or because god told you.

    Please explain to me how choice exists if future is pre ordained? no one seems to be able to argue this point. Explain to me what you think a choice is? If god knows whatís going to happen to me, then all the choices I will ever make have been decided at the dawn of time. Doesnít it make him not all loving if he does nothing? If you know your friends going to get hurt, and donít stop him, are you really is friend?

    Explain this in a way someone that doesnít have faith in god can understand, with a good argument. Faith cant be argued against or for, because faith is ultimately putting your trust in something you cannot perceive. If you can perceive it, its not faith anymore. Theirs no arguing faith, because faith is not based on facts or logic or ideas, its based on feelings, and I cannot tell you what you feel, but I at the very edge of reason try to argue that something, anything, that sees what I am about to do takes away my power to choose on the contrary. But if I succeed on choosing the contrary, the being that saw the future must be wrong.

    Please show me the flaw in my argument, if any.
    Last edited by White-Wolf; 10-19-2006 at 08:41 PM.

  5. #104
    Hoo-ah! I_Dont_Know859's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by White-Wolf
    I already said why at least 7 times, were you reading? maybe you should reread my posts about free will. Or better yet Maybe you should tell me how knowing the future does not inhibit free will, that we can discuss this. Or how god CAN be these things, through an argument that doesnít involve something concerning belief or because god told you.
    So your asking someone on a forum about christian religion to explain something without using what god said in our bible and not concerning our beliefs. Hmmmm. What do you want to me to write out the formula for the space time continum here? Think about that last sentence you made. You want us to explain our Christian Beleifs on a Christian forum without using what god told us. The bible teaches us the ways of God and you dont want us to use it .

    Quote Originally Posted by White-Wolf
    Please explain to me how choice exists if future is pre ordained? no one seems to be able to argue this point. Explain to me what you think a choice is? If god knows whatís going to happen to me, then all the choices I will ever make have been decided at the dawn of time. Doesnít it make him not all loving if he does nothing? If you know your friends going to get hurt, and donít stop him, are you really is friend?
    Maybe you should reread the posts i explained it right here in a previous post: <<<ok the best way i can explain this to you is that yes are fate can be seen by God. God knows everything we will do from giving us free will. Therefore, he isnt consciously controlling us. He is letting us do our own thing while knowing what we will do before hand. God knows our fate in the end. ok think of it this way god gave us free will and looked into the future to see what we would do with it therefore technically our free will isnt taken away, ALL GOD DID WAS LOOK AHEAD OF TIME. Our actions have already been foreseen by the gift of free will. If almighty God wants to look into the future, who's to stop him. I guess it is just down to what you call it, but it sounds like free will to me. I'm ending my agrument here because like i said its hard to witness over the internet. But to a logical person i believe this is very possible if you believe there is a god.>>> Answered you right there, even makes sense for those with out faith. It all works out perfectly, even for a nonbelieve just assuming God exists. I'm sorry white wolf, but if you say this is absolutely impossible and contraditory, that would be pretty ignorant even from a scientific perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by White-Wolf
    Explain this in a way someone that doesnít have faith in god can understand, with a good argument. Faith cant be argued against or for, because faith is ultimately putting your trust in something you cannot perceive. If you can perceive it, its not faith anymore.
    Yeah its to bad us mortals can see into the future huh? it wouldnt be a problem then. luckily we still got good ol' faith. You would God could do if he wanted? He could come up to me and say tomorrow on your way to school that you usually take a drunk driver will hit you and kill you. I then would take another route to school i wouldnt normally take. Free will and foreseeing the future can work together after all and this doesnt deny God power but show how amazing it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by White-Wolf
    Theirs no arguing faith, because faith is not based on facts or logic or ideas, its based on feelings, and I cannot tell you what you feel, but I at the very edge of reason try to argue that something, anything, that sees what I am about to do takes away my power to choose on the contrary. But if I succeed on choosing the contrary, the being that saw the future must be wrong.

    Please show me the flaw in my argument, if any.
    OK i'll make this as simple as i can for you:
    1.God gave us free will.
    2.Lets say God wonders to himself "Hmmm, I wonder what Chris (my name) is going to do today. with that free will i gave him. Let me see how his day goes.
    3.Looks into future and sees he puts on whites socks, a black t-shirt, and blue jeans. For lunch he goes to Wendy's for some quick fast food off the wonderful 99 cent menu. Blah blah blah comes home goes to bed and falls asleep at exactly 11:45.
    4.Chris starts his day doing exactly as God foresaw cuz he's God (get this straight hes not predicting but foreseeing) the allpoweful being, creater of the universe and everything that exist, limitless powers, you get the picture right?
    5.Ok Chris has the free will to choose what he's wearing today, but white wolf god forbid God just so happens to be curious and wants to see ahead of time. Obviously it is an action of free will for me to use MY BRAIN to decide what im going to wear and god wanted to know is what i would do before i did it, its so simple. I mean come on, how can you even make the agrument the you could do something contrary unless you can read Gods mind. I may not be able to prove faith but how are you going to prove doing something contrary to God. You wanted a good solid agrument and now you got one. Free will and looking into the future tie in together and God can interfere if he wants to like he did so many times, especially in the old testiment, talking to people or whatever. Harassing the pharoah of Egypt to let his people go by sending plagues so that the pharoah would change his mind (free will). Of course God knew exactly what plagues to send to to help convince the pharoah but our God is all-knowing. Good stuff.
    Last edited by I_Dont_Know859; 10-19-2006 at 10:50 PM.
    For he is God's servant to do thee good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the servant of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Romans 13:4

  6. #105
    WiiChat Member White-Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I_Dont_Know859
    OK i'll make this as simple as i can for you:
    1.God gave us free will.
    2.Lets say God wonders to himself "Hmmm, I wonder what Chris (my name) is going to do today. with that free will i gave him. Let me see how his day goes.
    3.Looks into future and sees he puts on whites socks, a black t-shirt, and blue jeans. For lunch he goes to Wendy's for some quick fast food off the wonderful 99 cent menu. Blah blah blah comes home goes to bed and falls asleep at exactly 11:45.
    4.Chris starts his day doing exactly as God foresaw cuz he's God (get this straight hes not predicting but foreseeing) the allpoweful being, creater of the universe and everything that exist, limitless powers, you get the picture right?
    5.Ok Chris has the free will to choose what he's wearing today, but white wolf god forbid God just so happens to be curious and wants to see ahead of time. Obviously it is an action of free will for me to use MY BRAIN to decide what im going to wear and god wanted to know is what i would do before i did it, its so simple. I mean come on, how can you even make the agrument the you could do something contrary unless you can read Gods mind. I may not be able to prove faith but how are you going to prove doing something contrary to God. You wanted a good solid agrument and now you got one. Free will and looking into the future tie in together and God can interfere if he wants to like he did so many times, especially in the old testiment, talking to people or whatever. Harassing the pharoah of Egypt to let his people go by sending plagues so that the pharoah would change his mind (free will). Of course God knew exactly what plagues to send to to help convince the pharoah but our God is all-knowing. Good stuff.
    well, to be honest, i was looking for the word Compatibilism. that would have done it for me.

    here is what wiki says on th issue.

    Compatibilism, most famously championed by Hume, is a theory that suggests that free will and determinism are in fact compatible. According to Hume, free will should not be understood as an absolute ability to have chosen differently under exactly the same inner and outer circumstances. Rather, it is a hypothetical ability to have chosen differently if one had been differently psychologically disposed by some different beliefs or desires. That is, when one says that one could either continue to read this page or to delete it, one doesn't really mean that both choices are compatible with the complete state of the world right now, but rather that if one had desired to delete it one would have, even though as a matter of fact one actually desires to continue reading it, and therefore that is what will actually happen.

    Hume also maintains that free acts are not uncaused (or mysteriously self-caused as Kant would have it) but rather caused by our choices as determined by our beliefs, desires, and by our characters. While a decision making process exists in Hume's determinism, this process is governed by a causal chain of events. For example, one may make the decision to support Wikipedia, but that decision is determined by the conditions that existed prior to the decision being made.

    One libertarian or incompatibilist reaction to this claim holds that "free will" refers to genuine (e.g. absolute, ultimate) alternate possibilities for beliefs, desires or actions, rather than merely counterfactual ones. In the absence of such possibilities, the belief that free will confers responsibility is held to be false. However, a compatibilist may respond with the argument mentioned above stating that non-determinism is also incompatible with free will, so the libertarian is no better off. The compatibilist may also argue on conceptual grounds that "free will" has nothing to do with ultimate causes on a grand metaphysical scale, but instead only refers to an apparent fact of human psychology (i.e., that conscious mental states seem to play an active role in determining the choices that are made).

    Compatibilists often continue and argue that determinism is not just compatible with free will, but actually necessary for it. If one's actions aren't determined by one's beliefs, desires, and character, then it seems that they aren't one's real actions.



    I myself am a Incompatibilism

    wiki

    Incompatibilism means that the notion of a deterministic universe is completely at odds with the notion that people have a free will. It can be treated in at least two ways: by libertarians, who deny that the universe is deterministic through-and-through, and the hard determinists, who deny that any free will exists.

    out of those i would probably be a deterministic.

    i see my free will expanding as far as my imagination can wonder with no limitations. and no god can stop me. not even yours. becarefull what you let yourself be swallowed by... ever play breath of fire 2? hehehe
    Last edited by White-Wolf; 10-19-2006 at 11:08 PM.

  7. #106
    幸せ雑& Close's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by White-Wolf
    =
    i see my free will expanding as far as my imagination can wonder with no limitations. and no god can stop me. not even yours.
    Hes not just ours but yours too .

  8. #107
    WiiChat Member White-Wolf's Avatar
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    ya trying to take away my free will or what?

  9. #108
    Hoo-ah! I_Dont_Know859's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by White-Wolf
    ya trying to take away my free will or what?
    like i said before witnessing online isnt the best way to exactly witness to people. anyway i have enjoyed our debates white-wolf and i apologize if i have sounded rude. please understand i was merely countering your claims using the bible and my beliefs on this christian forum. I may not convince you that there is a god but thats your decision in the end after all with obviously both agree we have free will. You know where i stand and i know where you stand and i will respect that. I'm sure others, like mitch, found our debate interesting and realize were they stand on that issue. I witnessed and stood up for God and thats rewarding enough for me. Anyway, despite our definite views, i hope we can be friends and discuss the topics on other threads about the wii. And if you our every able to get online with the wii i look forward to challenging you. Never played an online game before . We cool?
    For he is God's servant to do thee good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the servant of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Romans 13:4

  10. #109
    WiiChat Member White-Wolf's Avatar
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    Sure thing. if only religion had plug and play

    i have to say, this smile is the best. But may i ask, when i have I said that i dont beleave in god? i Just see it diffrent then you, thats all.
    Last edited by White-Wolf; 10-20-2006 at 06:54 PM.

  11. #110
    Hoo-ah! I_Dont_Know859's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by White-Wolf
    Sure thing. if only religion had plug and play

    i have to say, this smile is the best. But may i ask, when i have I said that i dont beleave in god? i Just see it diffrent then you, thats all.
    oh my apologies then, i just got the impression you didn't from some of the statements you made from our debate.
    For he is God's servant to do thee good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the servant of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Romans 13:4

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