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  1. #291
    Union Spinty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gikoku Harakami View Post
    See, that is exactly what I'm talking about. God gets a free pass, and why exactly does he get a free pass with taking away lives?

    By your statement, a Mother & Father deserve just as much right to abort their child since they themselves created it also.

    I would love for you to really explain why it's OK for God to take away human life, yet it's not OK for a human to perform the same action.. regardless for whatever the cause. Because your statement is very hypocritical.
    I'm sure you know why. We're imperfect beings - death entered the world through sin. God gave us life - we abuse it - our death prevents us doing worse things. Yah, it's grim - but I accept it.

    I apologise if I am being hypocritical yet I have never taken a life. I do not understand.
    That's pretty much what brainwashing is. Why not wait until the child has reached an age of better understanding where they can truly make their own decisions, rather than doing it at a more vulnerable age?
    But it cannot be brainwashing - like I have said before, many atheists have had a strict religious upbringing and yet are able to make a choice different to what their parents wanted. Case in point: Richard Dawkins was raised in the Church of England yet this has had absolutely no effect on his adult life where is perhaps the most outspoken atheist there is. And those parents that raise their child in a faith only want the best for them.

    That is not what I implied, nor said..

    First off, that "dumb" person is not a fetus and does not qualify for abortion... for obvious reasons. So let's not go there.

    Are parents able to molest their children? Of course they are, should they?.. I wouldn't want them to.. Eithery way, you took what I said out of context.. We are talking about what they should be allowed to do with their unborn child before birth, not some toddler or kid.
    But that foetus has every potential to become a toddler or kid
    I sure hope you're not calling me a Nazi.. But again, you take what I say out of context (this is the 3rd time now). No, I do not suggest we kill off all defective and unhealthy babies, however if I were to be aware of beforehand that my child is going to be born with something horrible (like say.. Harlequin Ichthyosis) that kills it off long before it even learns to speak or even crawl, then I wouldn't want him/her to suffer through something like that.
    Not calling you a nazi - just nazi like. Nah, I'm kidding - it was just an example. I was simply saying that the Nazi eugenics plan wasn't very moral as it had a disregard for unique human life - I believe abortion is similar.

    f my child were born with an arm missing, I wouldn't have him/her killed, I'd still want them. Even if they were born mentally retarded, I'd still want them.
    But they wouldn't have as equal opportunities as healthy kids. I thought abortion was all about ensuring everybody lives happily every after?


    .. it's not alive yet, so no life is being "tragically" cut short.
    He/she is still alive, just still linked to their mother. The foetus has every potential to become a regular human being - why doesn't it have the right as well?


    EDIT: This post feels so out of place after a coffee debate.

  2. #292
    WiiChat Member rukus's Avatar
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    Case in point: Richard Dawkins was raised in the Church of England yet this has had absolutely no effect on his adult life where is perhaps the most outspoken atheist there is.
    actually, it is more likely that the fact he was brought up ina tight church family would have a completet effect on him as an adult. had he been brought up in a moderate secular family, he probably would not have ended up such a vocal component of atheism. his upbringing is directly related to who he is now.
    but.
    i do know what you were trying to say, but maybe this wasnt the most though out metaphor


    I thought abortion was all about ensuring everybody lives happily every after?
    most abortions are done only with the thought that the living, can go on to live happily ever after.
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  3. #293
    O'Doyle Rules lbu8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brawny View Post
    I believe you mean conception. :P

    And yes, I believe a baby is alive at conception, and I believe that the morning after pill is murder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brawny
    Which is why I'm fine with the morning after pill.
    Huh?

  4. #294
    Sam I Am Boethiah's Avatar
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    I'm sure you know why. We're imperfect beings - death entered the world through sin. God gave us life - we abuse it - our death prevents us doing worse things. Yah, it's grim - but I accept it.
    Ok, I'll stop you there. Saying Abortion should be illegal because your opinion is based on your faith is pushing your religious beliefs on other people.

    I apologise if I am being hypocritical yet I have never taken a life. I do not understand.
    You fear what you not understand, so you wish to prevent it?

    But it cannot be brainwashing - like I have said before, many atheists have had a strict religious upbringing and yet are able to make a choice different to what their parents wanted. Case in point: Richard Dawkins was raised in the Church of England yet this has had absolutely no effect on his adult life where is perhaps the most outspoken atheist there is. And those parents that raise their child in a faith only want the best for them.
    Yet, why is it that most people in the U.S are still religious? Is it because we are all incapable of thinking critically and truly questioning our surroundings? Most Americans are incapable because they were brainwashed at birth.

    But that foetus has every potential to become a toddler or kid
    Like said before, so does my semen


    Not calling you a nazi - just nazi like. Nah, I'm kidding - it was just an example. I was simply saying that the Nazi eugenics plan wasn't very moral as it had a disregard for unique human life - I believe abortion is similar.
    Yeah, you just pretty much called anyone who advocated abortion someone who supports Nazi actions.

  5. #295
    ミュージック Gikoku Harakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinty View Post
    I'm sure you know why. We're imperfect beings - death entered the world through sin. God gave us life - we abuse it - our death prevents us doing worse things. Yah, it's grim - but I accept it.
    So because God is perfect he gets to have all the rights in the world and is allowed to kill anyone, yet because we're imperfect.. we're not allowed to?

    Well gee, that's not very fair..

    And no, I don't know why (I'm Atheist with a fair amount of religious education), that's why I'm asking.

    I apologise if I am being hypocritical yet I have never taken a life. I do not understand.
    What makes you look hypocritical is that you say you're against killing (when done by a human), but yet you'll accept it if God does it.

    "I'm against killing!... well, uhh.. except if God does it."

    But it cannot be brainwashing - like I have said before, many atheists have had a strict religious upbringing and yet are able to make a choice different to what their parents wanted. Case in point: Richard Dawkins was raised in the Church of England yet this has had absolutely no effect on his adult life where is perhaps the most outspoken atheist there is. And those parents that raise their child in a faith only want the best for them.
    You can be brainwashed and still overcome it later on in life.

    But that foetus has every potential to become a toddler or kid
    So does my sperm, but I'm talking about what the parents should be allowed to do during the pregnancy stages, not after the baby has been born already.

    But they wouldn't have as equal opportunities as healthy kids. I thought abortion was all about ensuring everybody lives happily every after?
    So what if they don't have equal opportunities, they still get to enjoy life and what it offers (if their conditions allows them to). Abortions are done for different reasons, but no.. I wouldn't say it was only for that..

    He/she is still alive, just still linked to their mother. The foetus has every potential to become a regular human being - why doesn't it have the right as well?
    Why don't the parents have the right to abort it?

    It comes down to what you feel is right, since the fetus is clearly unable to make any decisions (seriously, it's incapable of doing so). I consider the baby to be alive when it has it's first heart beat.

    EDIT: This post feels so out of place after a coffee debate.
    Yeah.. HEY! Enough talk about abortions, LET'S DISCUSS SOME COFFEE!

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  6. #296
    A li'l bit different Squall7's Avatar
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    I'm actually feeling sorry for Spinty. Hardly a level playing field (about 5 people vs 1).

    Though I'm glad to see that the people not against abortion are atheists, while those against it are religious. I think that's the whole crux of the arguement.

    And Boethiah, what is it with your semen?! You're obsessed... Lol.

    It's funny how eugenics, the closest thing the nihilism in terms of morality, was headed by a member of the catholic church...

    Not making a point. Just find it slightly wierd...


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  7. #297
    Senior Member Napalmbrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squall7 View Post
    I'm actually feeling sorry for Spinty. Hardly a level playing field (about 5 people vs 1).

    Though I'm glad to see that the people not against abortion are atheists, while those against it are religious. I think that's the whole crux of the arguement.
    That isn't the crux of the argument though. Believe it or not, there are anti-abortion atheists out there, just as there are pro-choice religious people. Atheism is just a description of someone's opinion about the existence of God, and doesn't imply any moral views.

    It's funny how eugenics, the closest thing the nihilism in terms of morality, was headed by a member of the catholic church...
    Hitler was a monster, but so was Stalin.



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    Quote Originally Posted by AndThen?
    @ROB64 - The longer you spend on this forum, the more you realise that Napalmbrain knows a lot about everything.


  8. #298
    Union Spinty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boethiah View Post
    Ok, I'll stop you there. Saying Abortion should be illegal because your opinion is based on your faith is pushing your religious beliefs on other people.
    Nope - just naturally opposed to murder.

    You fear what you not understand, so you wish to prevent it?
    I didn't understand what Gikoku was saying and now you claim that I am afraid of him? Or maybe you're just taking things out of context?

    Yet, why is it that most people in the U.S are still religious? Is it because we are all incapable of thinking critically and truly questioning our surroundings? Most Americans are incapable because they were brainwashed at birth.
    Which is why you point-blank declare your atheism? Surely you're not truly questioning and considering if you completely abondon the idea of God but immerse yourself in one view point?


    Yeah, you just pretty much called anyone who advocated abortion someone who supports Nazi actions.
    I'll take what you said about Americans being incapable as truth.


    Quote Originally Posted by rukus
    actually, it is more likely that the fact he was brought up ina tight church family would have a completet effect on him as an adult. had he been brought up in a moderate secular family, he probably would not have ended up such a vocal component of atheism. his upbringing is directly related to who he is now.
    but.
    i do know what you were trying to say, but maybe this wasnt the most though out metaphor
    Metaphor? But we can't hold a lack of English knowledge against an American.

    So now that we realise it wasn't a metaphor, was it indeed the most well thought out example of a religious upbringing not brainwashing a child? Possibly not the best one, no - but I think it was relevant. According to your logic, teaching a child how to live is wrong as it gives them no chance to make their own decisions (kinda like abortion); but obviously Richard Dawkins was able to shun his religious upbringing and make his own decisions i.e. no brain wash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gikoku Harakami
    Why don't the parents have the right to abort it?

    It comes down to what you feel is right, since the fetus is clearly unable to make any decisions (seriously, it's incapable of doing so). I consider the baby to be alive when it has it's first heart beat.
    That's your opinion though. That heart beat just means that another part of muscle tissue has become functional. The baby still cannot think for itself yet why cannot it be killed at this stage when it is little different (in terms of consciousness and dependability). The child is still a foetus when the heart begins beating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squall7
    I'm actually feeling sorry for Spinty. Hardly a level playing field (about 5 people vs 1).

    Though I'm glad to see that the people not against abortion are atheists, while those against it are religious. I think that's the whole crux of the arguement.
    Yea, it's not easy having to reply to every comment.

    I think that this is only the case here. Many atheists are opposed to abortion and at the same time there will be "religious" people that are fine with it.

    Why have people here labled me as religious? You don't know me at all - I wouldn't consider myself to be relgious.

    Quote Originally Posted by James 1:27
    Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
    That's religion. I do not help people as much as I can so I would not consider myself religious.
    It's funny how eugenics, the closest thing the nihilism in terms of morality, was headed by a member of the catholic church...

    Not making a point. Just find it slightly wierd...
    Not really when you consider the crusades, indulgences, stirring up of anti-semetism and the big bang theory. The catholic church isn't very well known for caring for society.

  9. #299
    A li'l bit different Squall7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinty View Post
    Yea, it's not easy having to reply to every comment.
    Ha, that's happened a few times to me too. I still remember the legendary Resident Racist thread last year. Boy was I outnumbered. Got the game pre-ordered though.

    I think that this is only the case here. Many atheists are opposed to abortion and at the same time there will be "religious" people that are fine with it.
    Fair enough. Not that I've found this to be the case in my limited experience.

    Why have people here labled me as religious? You don't know me at all - I wouldn't consider myself to be relgious.
    It's the introduction of the concept of 'God' creating us all.

    Not really when you consider the crusades, indulgences, stirring up of anti-semetism and the big bang theory. The catholic church isn't very well known for caring for society.
    True, but it is for caring about it's own rules, including no murder (unless church sanctioned), homosexuality and sex being only for those wed under God's name.

    Besides, not really making a statement against it. While Hitler was a Catholic, I'm sure not all Catholics agree with him (in fact I think it's only the current Pope that would kinda agree).

    Quote Originally Posted by napalmbrain
    That isn't the crux of the argument though. Believe it or not, there are anti-abortion atheists out there, just as there are pro-choice religious people. Atheism is just a description of someone's opinion about the existence of God, and doesn't imply any moral views.
    Fair enough. Never really met any though, either in real life or online.

    Hitler was a monster, but so was Stalin.
    Indeed. Both took their policies to be almighty and extreme lengths to which they were no longer justifiable (or even illustrative of the concepts they started with).


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  10. #300
    ミュージック Gikoku Harakami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinty View Post
    That's your opinion though. That heart beat just means that another part of muscle tissue has become functional. The baby still cannot think for itself yet why cannot it be killed at this stage when it is little different (in terms of consciousness and dependability). The child is still a foetus when the heart begins beating.
    I know it's my opinion, I wouldn't abort a fetus that has gotten that far in it's development.. course, I don't know anyone who would anyway. I'm for abortion, but only when it's very early in the development (before the heart has become functional)... I blame my morality for that.

    Yea, it's not easy having to reply to every comment.
    You're free to ignore any of the comments directed at you.

    Gikoku ハラカミ
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    Don't think. Feel...
    It's like a finger pointing to the moon.
    Don't concentrate on the finger or you'll miss all that heavenly glory.
    ~Bruce Lee, Wing Chun.


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