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Thread: Does God exist?

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    Not Here Shadow*91's Avatar
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    basically what you said right there is that only a god can do impossible things. that's your entire post in one sentence.

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    Senior Member Napalmbrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bio View Post
    Well, it's just an example.

    Whether or not Dad had the potential of being wrong is kind of beside the point I was making. My point is that his child's ability of making a choice did not have anything to do with what his Dad could have known, so if foreknowledge was in the situation, it doesn't eliminate the existence of choice. It's probably not the best analogy to use, though.
    The fact that an omniscient being cannot be wrong is a necessary premise in my argument, so to consider it "besides the point" in your counter-example is completely missing the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGMasterTurk91 View Post
    So, back to what I was saying, this whole case is only an APPARENT (by apparent I mean it only appears to be so at first glance) contradiction, but upon analysis we see that it is only a possibility for God. For instance, unless Mr. X was code for God, Mr. X cannot be omniscient, it is an impossibility in itself. It is a quality that belongs to the omnipotent, all-knowing Creator Himself (God), no human or living thing can possess it, it is unrealistic. God, however, can know the future, and by knowing it does not force the outcome, rather He knows the outcome that you will make.

    But, even if a human being WAS omniscient, his/her being omniscient may cause his/her own destruction. By knowing the future, he/she has created a future for THEMSELVES that involves knowing the future! If someone knew their own future, they could do nothing to change it. God can interact in peoples' present lives which contribute to the greater future, which is already known. Just because God knows whether you are going to heaven or hell already by no means equates to your future being set. Thus, it is still completely logical that God can exist 'omnisciently'.
    Look, Mr. X is just a hypothetical being I made up in order to get away from your presumptions about God's supposedly good nature, because it's not relevant to the argument. You can think of Mr. X as a human, a hyper-advanced computer, or even as another god if you like.

    Also, on what grounds do you claim that only God can be all-knowing?
    Last edited by Napalmbrain; 01-22-2010 at 07:51 PM.



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  3. #523
    Turkish RPG Master RPGMasterTurk91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napalmbrain View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bio View Post
    Well, it's just an example.

    Whether or not Dad had the potential of being wrong is kind of beside the point I was making. My point is that his child's ability of making a choice did not have anything to do with what his Dad could have known, so if foreknowledge was in the situation, it doesn't eliminate the existence of choice. It's probably not the best analogy to use, though.
    The fact that an omniscient being cannot be wrong is a necessary premise in my argument, so to consider it "besides the point" in your counter-example is completely missing the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGMasterTurk91 View Post
    So, back to what I was saying, this whole case is only an APPARENT (by apparent I mean it only appears to be so at first glance) contradiction, but upon analysis we see that it is only a possibility for God. For instance, unless Mr. X was code for God, Mr. X cannot be omniscient, it is an impossibility in itself. It is a quality that belongs to the omnipotent, all-knowing Creator Himself (God), no human or living thing can possess it, it is unrealistic. God, however, can know the future, and by knowing it does not force the outcome, rather He knows the outcome that you will make.

    But, even if a human being WAS omniscient, his/her being omniscient may cause his/her own destruction. By knowing the future, he/she has created a future for THEMSELVES that involves knowing the future! If someone knew their own future, they could do nothing to change it. God can interact in peoples' present lives which contribute to the greater future, which is already known. Just because God knows whether you are going to heaven or hell already by no means equates to your future being set. Thus, it is still completely logical that God can exist 'omnisciently'.
    Look, Mr. X is just a hypothetical being I made up in order to get away from your presumptions about God's supposedly good nature, because it's not relevant to the argument. You can think of Mr. X as a human, a hyper-advanced computer, or even as another god if you like.

    Also, on what grounds do you claim that only God can be all-knowing?
    Because the Bible says so!

    Haha that's a joke I'll get back to you later, can't now.

    Ok so as I was saying before, I had to bring up Mr.X because the only way for him to be omniscient is that in fact He IS God, omniscience in itself cannot exist and cannot be experienced by any human being or living thing for that matter. It is impossible, unless God himself grants it, which goes against His nature and will never be done. Omniscience is a quality only God has. It comes with being omnipotent and omnipresent. A human being or anything else on this planet being truly omniscient couldn't CHANGE their future that they see, as it would always lead to the same conclusion no matter what they do. It would be a future that involves seeing the future. Interestingly enough, no human being has never or will never be exposed to such a thing. God on the other hand knows the future that you will create for yourself before you create it, that's all. If you were given the sure knowledge of the future, then the 'greater future' would include you looking into your future! The future is what you make of it, including any intervention from God. This intervention from God was known to happen by God himself.

    Could you say that everything that has happened up until now was supposed to and absolutely meant to happen from cause and effect which lead to another cause and effect starting from the birth of a child? There are people who believe that free will doesn't exist and that this is the case, but it is untrue, free will does exist, but those people who say this have a flawed understanding of what free will actually is.

    As to why does God have to be an all-knowing being, most of this answer comes about believing in Him to begin with, you would pretty much have to believe that God hears and sees everything that you do and that this life is but a test. And only a just, watcher of everything, who also created everything, can make the ultimate decision of heaven or hell (He knows better than people themselves their own deepest intentions, etc.). In order for God to exist and test us fairly, Ge must be complete and absolutely perfect. Knowing the future is something that belongs to Him alone, after all. If he wasn't omnipotent, than He has the potential of suddenly disappearing, if He had partners, it would imply that He needed their aid and that He is not perfect, and neither are His partners. There would be chaos if more than one God existed, in case you then ask why multiple Gods couldn't exist.
    Last edited by RPGMasterTurk91; 01-23-2010 at 09:00 PM.
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  4. #524
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    I know God exists; I have come to the conclusion via empirical experience and personal revelation. Oddly enough, chemistry alone strengthens my convictions of His existence. And the fact that the Jews are still around after all these years should at least be sufficient for anyone inquiring as to whether the Abrahamic God exists.

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    turk, once more you've essentially repeated the same thing
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow*91 View Post
    basically what you said right there is that only a god can do impossible things. that's your entire post in one sentence.
    but that's just the whole 'god works in mysterious ways' excuse worded differently.

    it's impossible for free will and omniscience to exist together. if the future is known, then that means it's set. if the future is set then free will doesn't exist and everything was fated or destined to happen a certain way. but yet we have free will so it's impossible to know the future, or we have the illusion of free will and i was meant to type this.

  6. #526
    Senior Member Napalmbrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by navarre View Post
    I know God exists; I have come to the conclusion via empirical experience and personal revelation. Oddly enough, chemistry alone strengthens my convictions of His existence. And the fact that the Jews are still around after all these years should at least be sufficient for anyone inquiring as to whether the Abrahamic God exists.
    In what way is that sufficient proof of God's existence? The Australian Aborigines have been around for at least 40,000 years, does that make their Dreamtime stories real?

    For me, chemistry (and science in general) has done nothing to convince me there is a God. In fact, it's made me less inclined to believe, because I've learned to look at things more sceptically, and with the benefit of knowledge.



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  7. #527
    pull the trigger. AndThen?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napalmbrain View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by navarre View Post
    I know God exists; I have come to the conclusion via empirical experience and personal revelation. Oddly enough, chemistry alone strengthens my convictions of His existence. And the fact that the Jews are still around after all these years should at least be sufficient for anyone inquiring as to whether the Abrahamic God exists.
    In what way is that sufficient proof of God's existence? The Australian Aborigines have been around for at least 40,000 years, does that make their Dreamtime stories real?
    Holla.

    Quote Originally Posted by Napalmbrain
    For me, chemistry (and science in general) has done nothing to convince me there is a God. In fact, it's made me less inclined to believe, because I've learned to look at things more sceptically, and with the benefit of knowledge.
    I completely agree with you. In fact furthering my studies into astrophysics during my last semester of school kind of opened my eyes to the scientific universe, which doesn't seem particularly compatible with the God theory. All of it was just so interesting... I mean, being able to scientifically deduce the age of the universe and all... It made me believe that religion often doesn't add another dimension to one's life, it rather holds people back from the understanding of the world around them.

  8. #528
    Turkish RPG Master RPGMasterTurk91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow*91 View Post
    basically what you said right there is that only a god can do impossible things. that's your entire post in one sentence.
    No, but God can do things that are not humanly possible. No human being or any other living creature can be omniscient, but God can be, and is. Only one omnipotent being out there, too, and that's God. Omniscience and free will are compatible with one another, and the only one who is truly omniscient is God Himself. Omnipotence is also impossible to attain, but is a quality that only God has. Omnipotence is impossible, in your context, but is possible (and is the case) for God.
    "Many religions within a nation causes little conflict, but two religions within a nation is nothing less than conflict."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napalmbrain View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by navarre View Post
    I know God exists; I have come to the conclusion via empirical experience and personal revelation. Oddly enough, chemistry alone strengthens my convictions of His existence. And the fact that the Jews are still around after all these years should at least be sufficient for anyone inquiring as to whether the Abrahamic God exists.
    In what way is that sufficient proof of God's existence? The Australian Aborigines have been around for at least 40,000 years, does that make their Dreamtime stories real?

    For me, chemistry (and science in general) has done nothing to convince me there is a God. In fact, it's made me less inclined to believe, because I've learned to look at things more sceptically, and with the benefit of knowledge.

    The Jews have been massacred and have suffered pogroms ever since their foundations. Christian Europe, Muslim Arabia, Russia, South America, Nazi Germany... I find the fact that they still around after attempts at their extermination by just about every culture everywhere convincing.

    Chemistry makes me certain about God; the atoms and their properties must've been designed. Physics, expecially astronomy, does cast doubts into one's mind; faith is a rollercoaster, and doubts are just a necessary part of it.

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  10. #530
    Bio
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    Science is one of my favorite subjects, but it never changed my beliefs, though. I just figured this world was always more expansive and intricate than I would have previously imagined anyway. It seems to me that we are bound to find a greater complexity and structure to our universe, but that supreme order of things in itself makes me feel that as though it didn't simply exist by chance. The more systematic and orderly the world feels, the more I marvel at it and wonder if there was a mind at work that originally made it so.
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