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  1. #401
    shiftfallout.com Shiftfallout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestial
    Fair enough... I've never been good at arguing... so you win. But I'm more of a GTA/Final Fantasy person myself, although I love Mario games.

    Or maybe Shift will argue for me?
    Mario games of the present are not the mario games of the past. So i think its fair to say people are familiar with the franchise he represents, his character is one of the oldest video game characters in existance and thus an icon to represent video games in general. However, Mario as a character is well known, NOT Mario as a video game. If you mention mario to someone, they will know who he is but they wont be able to explain the games that are associated with his character.

    This is where choosing a preferable game and genre come into play. Final Fantasy is amazing because it does not rely on the same characters to sell the product, its a franchise with no main character. Just quality and consistant good story telling. GTA is a franchise with no main character(s), its a game known for its style of play and humor. Mario is a franchise that is consistant that it relies on the character as the icon. Many say if you have played any post N64 mario game you have played them all. In a sense this is true because they are becoming a bit repetative. So people play mario for mario. Get rid of mario and what do you have? In Final Fantasy you dont rely on any one known character, same with GTA. This is why people might enjoy these franchises more due to less repetative characters.

    So we need to seperate Mario as an icon and game. The icon is popular, i wouldnt go as far as to say the games are, especially the current ones.

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  3. #402
    WiiChat Member Celestial's Avatar
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    Thanks for that!

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  4. #403
    dodabird dodabird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiftfallout
    Mario games of the present are not the mario games of the past. So i think its fair to say people are familiar with the franchise he represents, his character is one of the oldest video game characters in existance and thus an icon to represent video games in general. However, Mario as a character is well known, NOT Mario as a video game. If you mention mario to someone, they will know who he is but they wont be able to explain the games that are associated with his character.

    This is where choosing a preferable game and genre come into play. Final Fantasy is amazing because it does not rely on the same characters to sell the product, its a franchise with no main character. Just quality and consistant good story telling. GTA is a franchise with no main character(s), its a game known for its style of play and humor. Mario is a franchise that is consistant that it relies on the character as the icon. Many say if you have played any post N64 mario game you have played them all. In a sense this is true because they are becoming a bit repetative. So people play mario for mario. Get rid of mario and what do you have? In Final Fantasy you dont rely on any one known character, same with GTA. This is why people might enjoy these franchises more due to less repetative characters.

    So we need to seperate Mario as an icon and game. The icon is popular, i wouldnt go as far as to say the games are, especially the current ones.
    ok, let's separate them. mario is definitely nintendo's posterboy. but i think it's unfair to say that if you were to mention mario to people, they'd be able to identify him as a character but not be able to tell you what games he represents; if this is true, how then are they able to identify mario? do you really believe that there are people out there who can only say that they know mario, but know nothing of what he represents game-wise? that's like saying, "yes, i know GTA, but i only know it as a car game." that's not fair, is it? i'm sure people are able to say, "GTA is a game where you can hotwire cars and race around the city and kill people." I just said it, and I can tell you right now that i've never played a GTA game in my life. how do i know the basic rundown? well, because it's become a postergame for sony. in the same sense, mario has been the posterboy for nintendo; to say that people arne't able to identify mario along with what he represents is unfair.

    now mario as a franchise. it's untrue that his franchise is based solely on him--you know as well as i do that there are other memorable characters that helped skyrocket mario to the top. for instance, peach (or princess toadstool), toad, bowser and luigi have all appealed to different types of gamers worldwide. all of these characters hold a distinct place in the mario franchise; if any one of these characters were to disappear forever, will the franchise itself not be changed eternally? the fact of the matter is that the franchise is what is it because of its characters, but that's not to rule out its gameplay. mario's setup has historically been one of the best there's been in the gaming industry. from the side-scrolling platforms to the 3D, run-wherever-the-hell-you-want upgrades, mario's gameplay has been nothing short of spectacular. either way you flip this coin, mario's franchise is based on much more than mario himself. from his supporting cast to the undeniably fun gameplay (admittedly, there may have been a fluke or two), mario still reigns supreme in the gaming industry.

    so to compare, again (and i say again cuz it seems like this debate can go on forever), is unfair. it's like pitting lebron james up against michael jordan: james' got game, but it's far too early to make any assumptions as to his legacy; as for right now, and as far as i can tell, jordan will always be at the top of the game.

    watermelons and grapes.
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  5. #404
    shiftfallout.com Shiftfallout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodabird
    ok, let's separate them. mario is definitely nintendo's posterboy. but i think it's unfair to say that if you were to mention mario to people, they'd be able to identify him as a character but not be able to tell you what games he represents; if this is true, how then are they able to identify mario? do you really believe that there are people out there who can only say that they know mario, but know nothing of what he represents game-wise? that's like saying, "yes, i know GTA, but i only know it as a car game." that's not fair, is it? i'm sure people are able to say, "GTA is a game where you can hotwire cars and race around the city and kill people." I just said it, and I can tell you right now that i've never played a GTA game in my life. how do i know the basic rundown? well, because it's become a postergame for sony. in the same sense, mario has been the posterboy for nintendo; to say that people arne't able to identify mario along with what he represents is unfair.
    You basically just agreed with me and didnt even know it. Mario is an icon, the characters in the mario franchise are the selling points of the games. This is not true for final fantasy or GTA. Their franchises have different focuses.

    Its not about what games mario represents, people can say. Hey its mario the video game character. But can they honestly talk about the games? Can you go up to a random stranger and say, hey do you know Mario and Luigi? then say Tell me about Mario Sunshine? most people can associate with knowing the characters. I wouldnt go as far as to say they know all the games. Meaning, they talk about the characters not the games or the gameplay. In GTA people talk about the gameplay and the games, not the characters. Final Fantasy includes the story and each individual game has a cast of main characters. The franchise is popular not because of any one character.

    People can look forward to the next Final Fantasy game without knowning the new characters, but are equally excited. People can look forward to the next GTA game without knowing the characters and story.

    People cannot look forward to the next mario game if theres no Mario (and casts). Its simple really. I dont know how you dont get this part. Mario is an icon, he represents gaming.. not just for nintendo but the whole console gaming industry. You also forget Marios popularity stems from a Movie, Cartoons, comics, toys, coloring books, lunchpails.. the list goes on. Its his character that people love, the franchises characters.. the ones people know. Games.. no not so much.

    And yes, you cant compare the two, which is what i have been saying. Because Mario as a franchise is based off characters/icon not a genre. GTA and Final Fantasy, are franchises based off a genre and legacy.

    Are you arguing for the sake or arguing?

    now mario as a franchise. it's untrue that his franchise is based solely on him--you know as well as i do that there are other memorable characters that helped skyrocket mario to the top. for instance, peach (or princess toadstool), toad, bowser and luigi have all appealed to different types of gamers worldwide. all of these characters hold a distinct place in the mario franchise; if any one of these characters were to disappear forever, will the franchise itself not be changed eternally?
    Read the above comment, its is TRUE. Mario bros is based off. .yes mario. Remember all those games that .. left Luigi out of the loop untill people started complaining. Luigi is still being put under the rug most of the time. Mario sunshine have luigi as a playable character? will mario galaxy? Will these other characters appear in mario galaxy with the same focus as mario? no .. not so much. The days of Mario Bros are over, its all about Mario himself.

    Will the franchise itself not be changed eternally if characters dissapear? Its happening all the time. Mario Bros 3 brought in the Koopa kids, cartoons followed and all that good stuff, now they are gone. What about the Yoshi world? All you have left is a green Yoshi and no explaination as to why. The exclusion of Bowser after Princess has turned into the creation of.. shocking.. yes Wario and Maluigi.. i mean.. how could they have ever invented these new characters? Bowser was creative.. wario, maluigi.. whats next evil yoshi and princess evilpeach?

    No, the focus in on Mario. And now.. shocking Wario. Mario and Wario as seperate franchises. Didnt take a genius to think that one up did it?
    The franchise relys on the iconic characters, nothing more. Wario Ware? its a game with Wario slapped onto it, it has nothign to do with him. Icon to sell a product.


    the fact of the matter is that the franchise is what is it because of its characters, but that's not to rule out its gameplay. mario's setup has historically been one of the best there's been in the gaming industry. from the side-scrolling platforms to the 3D, run-wherever-the-hell-you-want upgrades, mario's gameplay has been nothing short of spectacular. either way you flip this coin, mario's franchise is based on much more than mario himself. from his supporting cast to the undeniably fun gameplay (admittedly, there may have been a fluke or two), mario still reigns supreme in the gaming industry.
    Thats a nice opinion, but its not true. A mario game without mario is no game at all. The franchise is based off the character, nothing more. Imagine those games without any mario character. You cant because the iconic character is the focus on the game. Not so for GTA. Not so for FF.



    watermelons and grapes.
    Yet they are both Fruit. No one is saying they are the same in every possible way. Mario is an icon that has been around since the original donkey kong rolling barrels game that appeared in arcades. His franchise is based off him. He is the popular focus, not the games. GTA is the other way around, same with FF.

    Just accept it. You keep debating in circles.
    Last edited by Shiftfallout; 04-11-2007 at 07:42 AM.

  6. #405
    dodabird dodabird's Avatar
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    it's interesting how you accuse me of "debating in circles," when you're the one who is attempting to base your entire argument (again and again) on the assumption that mario, as an individual, is the only thing that holds that franchise together. yes, i am agreeing with you (and i'm quite cognizant of it, thank you): mario (and his list of friends) is the selling point, but it isn't the only thing that makes mario great. this is where i think you and i are missing each other. you argue selling points, i argue selling points and gameplay. don't get me wrong, i don't completely disagree with you. again, i agree that mario is what gets the games off the shelf, but i cannot bring myself to agree that mario himself is the only thing that makes the game great and look myself in the mirror the next day; how you can is beyond me. no, i can't walk up to a stranger and ask them if they knew mario and if so, if they can tell me about mario sunshine. but can you walk up to that same stranger and ask them about to explain to you the plot of ffII? III? VIII? of course not--it's absurd! if someone doesn't play games, how in the world are they gonna get specific? that's not how this debate is going to be decided, Shiftfallout. i believe that the most important aspect of this debate is the transcendent popularity of gaming franchises. and whether you want to believe it or not, when you pit mario (or zelda or donkey kong) against final fantasy or GTA, nintendo has the upper hand; it has and always will. again, i'm not denying the quality of sony's main contenders, or the popularity even. i am saying that when comparing system franchises, there is just no competition.

    waterme--ugh, forget it.

    p.s. i appreciate the fact that you're willing to debate with me on this issue. it's good to know that we can keep a decent, intelligent conversation going without getting childish. kudos.
    Nintendo On The Islands

  7. #406
    yeah. imae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodabird
    ... i think it's unfair to say that if you were to mention mario to people, they'd be able to identify him as a character but not be able to tell you what games he represents; if this is true, how then are they able to identify mario?
    I agrree. for any strong icon / character to be as recognizable as mario they need a strong association with something. Mario is associated with arguably the best series of platforming games made and i think most people will say something along the lines of "jumping around and hitting blocks" whene asked about the games themselves. and imho without the consitantly strong quality of games mario has featured in the character would gradually fade away.




    The franchise is based off the character, nothing more.
    Mario may be an initial selling point for nintendo for his familiarity, but without the quality of the games themselves .. well he'd be in alot of trouble. IMO the quality of the games has kept the character strong.. not the other way around.
    Last edited by imae; 04-11-2007 at 08:41 AM.

    ---

  8. #407
    dodabird dodabird's Avatar
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    thanks. finally, a different contributor to this debate. frankly, i'm getting a little tired. i'm writing this paper for my poetry class, and as soon as it's done, my ass is going to sleep (12:30 in the morning on guam!). but thanks for your approval; hopefully, i can get through to some other people
    Nintendo On The Islands

  9. #408
    Banned MasterJedi2U's Avatar
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    Don't sweat it dodabird. Everyone in here knows shift likes arguing just for the sake of arguing. The point is that yes Mario is an icon. But hes not the only fact in what makes those games so popular.

  10. #409
    So sexy hotpotato78's Avatar
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    Shift not to get on your case but i just have a question for you. So when it comes to Mircosoft, you think they should let go of halo character because they same character is being used over and over again? Eventually they would have to take a different route in the halo franchise

    To me nintendo franchise games are based on One character sequels. everyone can agree that Link,Mario, and Samus as been seen from SNES days. But those games still are fun though. Final fantasy is a game i love and you are right, it does not base itself on a character icon because the game is more about the visuals,gameplay and storyline. But what you must realise is that those games are different from mario.(epecially GTA) Gta is based on real life just like true crimes, so there is no need to keep using on character because the character is not important as mario because mario is more of a hero like superman "mario save me". But in many ways i agree with you and in many wany ways i do disagree with you. i will read the rest of your post after i post this....

    Usually adventure games do focus on one character though...and FF is a stradegy role play game and Gta is a shooting role playing game..... But mario was a hit for nintendo when he first hit the blocks so that's why he will always be around. After a while they will bring an end to mario. The zelda franchise can always take a turn away from link, and metroid can always take a turn from samus but mario can not take a turn because the game is named after him.
    Last edited by hotpotato78; 04-11-2007 at 09:08 AM.

  11. #410
    shiftfallout.com Shiftfallout's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dodabird
    ... i think it's unfair to say that if you were to mention mario to people, they'd be able to identify him as a character but not be able to tell you what games he represents; if this is true, how then are they able to identify mario?
    Quote Originally Posted by imae
    I agrree. for any strong icon / character to be as recognizable as mario they need a strong association with something. Mario is associated with arguably the best series of platforming games made and i think most people will say something along the lines of "jumping around and hitting blocks" whene asked about the games themselves. and imho without the consitantly strong quality of games mario has featured in the character would gradually fade away.

    Mario may be an initial selling point for nintendo for his familiarity, but without the quality of the games themselves .. well he'd be in alot of trouble. IMO the standard the games have been to have kept the character strong.. not the other way around.
    Rather, Mario as the icon is due to him being used in... NON-Game related products. Meaning, His icon, his character has been put on the market in every possible form. The games themselves are no longer the focus, and it becomes less so as time goes on. Anyone remember the movie "wizard" which showed off nintendo products? How about the cartoons marketed towards children, or the live action stuff, or the mario food products, or the pajamas, or the shampoo... mario as an icon, not a game. Thats what its become. He is an icon, an icon that represents Video gaming in general. Unfortunately, you cant have a mario product with out the star. Mario is the reason people like the games, I dont think its the games themselves. Im not saying all the games are bad, but they are not as amazing as you make them out to be. Its mario, he is the high lander, there can be only one. As such, since the 80s, he has went from being known as "jumpman" to "mario" in donky kong jr. Remember it all started in the arcades of ages past.






    To name a few:
    Mario Glasses Case
    Mario Game Keychain
    Mario Movie stuff
    Mario Japanese Figures
    Mario Phone Cards
    Mario Ties
    Mario Cars
    Mario Beanie Babies
    Mario Watches
    Mario Hat
    Mario Cups
    Mario Christmas Ornaments
    Mario Plush Dolls
    Mario Shirts
    Mario Walkie Talkie
    Mario Stamp Sheet
    Mario Trophies
    Mario Pin
    Mario Clock
    Mario Remote Control Kart
    Mario Boxers
    Mario Golf Balls
    Mario Legos
    Mario Wall Paper
    Mario Camera
    Mario Towel
    Mario Ceiling Fan
    Mario Board Game.
    Mario Clip-ons
    Mario Alarm Clock
    Mario Calculator
    Mario Cups
    Mario Stickers
    Mario Pogs
    Mario Valentines
    Mario Sing-a-long Radio
    Mario Placemat
    Mario Anime Comic
    Mario Kart Plush Toys
    Mario Suspenders
    Mario Trash Can
    Mario Lunch Box: The sequel
    Mario Pillow Case
    Mario Curtains
    Mario Cereal
    Mario Copter
    Mario Keychains
    Mario Gumball Dispenser
    Mario Action Figures (from Mcdonalds)
    Mario Karaoke Machine
    Mario Sponge
    Super Mario soundtracks
    Mario Telephone
    Mario Lunch Box
    Mario Cookie Jars
    Mario Chair
    Mario Soda
    Mario Mask
    Mario Pez dispenser
    Mario mini-pinball
    Mario Action Figures (from Toy Biz)
    Mario Shower head
    Mario Wallet
    Mario TV Tray
    Mario Cookie Cutters
    Mario Water Squirter
    Mario Sleeping Bag
    Mario Marionette
    Mario Ice Cream Bar
    Mario Shampoo
    Mario Toys (Wendy's)
    Mario Bookmark
    Mario Kart Phone
    Japanese Keychains/Mobile Strap
    2006 Mario Toys (McDonald's)
    http://www.smbhq.com/media.htm

    Mario is know as an icon, a product. Again, his popularity does not rely on any games other than what started it all.
    Last edited by Shiftfallout; 04-11-2007 at 09:11 AM.

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