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  1. #1
    MS3 naisatoh's Avatar
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    My thoughts on Geno in Brawl (Very interesting!)

    This post was originally intended to be a reply to AtomicB's thread about Geno in Brawl, but after gaining a little bit of momentum, I decided this post could function as its own thread, and would appreciate the feedback.

    I am well aware of this Geno's popularity, both from Sakurai's poll and from the buzz that's been generated from SmashBoards. And although I agree [with AtomicB] that Geno makes for a potentially unique addition to Brawl, I do not believe he "belongs" in this roster for 2 big reasons. (Important: although the first part of this post concentrates on my reasons why Geno wouldn't belong in the roster, the second part of my post outlines a plausible way of making him an important part of the game as well as a playable character)

    Part 1 - Against

    1. Star Power: Geno made his first appearance as one of the playable characters in Super Mario RPG. Since then, he has only made one cameo appearance in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga. Geno simply doesn't have the star power to be featured in the Brawl's playable roster. While one can make the argument that there are characters like Ice Climbers who have only been featured in one game prior to the creation of Smash Bros, the fact that they were the titular characters in a game created solely by Nintendo was enough to put them over the edge.

    As a matter of fact, a number of roster characters have had minimal game time. Pit has only been in two games (not counting cameo appearances) while newcomer Olimar has only been featured in two games as well. What sets these characters apart from Geno is the fact that these characters were the sole main characters of the games they starred in. They single handedly represent their respective Nintendo franchises and as a result, carry the star power needed to obtain a position on the roster.

    2. Third Party Power - What sets Geno apart from other confirmed third party characters as well as other potential third party participants is his lack of third party power. Solid Snake not only represents the Metal Gear franchise, but also Konami as a whole. Likewise, Sonic not only represents the Sonic franchise, but also the entire Sega corporation. Geno, whose rights are owned by Square-Enix, just doesn't have the power to represent Square as a corporation.

    I agree that it Square would probably have no problem lending Geno to the creative minds behind the Smash franchise. In fact, if Nintendo really pushed for it, I don't see why Square would object to selling all rights to the character to the Nintendo corporation as I doubt Square has any long term plans for Geno.

    If a character was going to come out of Square-Enix, it would be a character that would be able to bear the weight of representing a multi-million dollar company. Other potential third party characters (Megaman comes to mind) have much more third party power than Geno has.

    Part 2 - Geno in Brawl

    I'm not saying that Geno won't happen, especially since he scored so high in Sakurai's poll and dozens of predicted rosters have included him in the list. If he were to be included, Sakurai would have to do it in a way so that Geno would obtain Star Power by being in Brawl. Let me explain this thought:

    The Subspace Emissary puts our heroes up against some of the biggest villains in Nintendo history. However, although characters like Bowser and Dedede are clearly up to no good, we know there is a driving force behind all the events that occur in this game. The Subspace Army, led by the Ancient Minister is the main antagonist that ties together all the bosses and bad guys we face during the game.

    Likewise, it would make sense for the Subspace Emissary to have a main protagonist who could tie together all the good guys we come across. Geno happens to fit the bill, especially since his character is a spirit sent from the high heavens to maintain good in the world.

    With the power to bring any inanimate object to life, his role in this game does not need to be limited by the doll that appears predominantly in Super Mario RPG. Although this would most likely be his main form, Geno could breathe life into many surrounding objects (rocks, broken Subspace machines) to guide the player through the game.

    This way, Geno would be launched from Mario's one-time sidekick to main protagonist of one of Nintendo's biggest games of 2008. Not to mention, it would make thousands of fans happy to see their most wanted character represented in a new, original way.

    Thoughts? Discussion?
    Last edited by naisatoh; 01-09-2008 at 03:40 PM.

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  2. #2
    Status: Idle AtomicB's Avatar
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    Wow... Someone actually read my thread???
    Today?!

    I haven't read your post, I'm getting ready to right now.
    I think it's safe to say 'Good Job' though!

    Looks like a long read. I think I'll grab a Coffee Beverage!

    I really hope you can hold your end of the soon-to-be 'debate'! This should be fun!
    GAME OVER

  3. #3
    Status: Idle AtomicB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    This post was originally intended to be a reply to AtomicB's thread about Geno in Brawl, but after gaining a little bit of momentum, I decided this post could function as its own thread, and would appreciate the feedback.
    That's why I'm here. I thought that thread was dead anyways!
    (Sorry if the breaking down of posts annoys you... But I function best when I do this.)

    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    I am well aware of this Geno's popularity, both from Sakurai's poll and from the buzz that's been generated from SmashBoards. And although I agree [with AtomicB] that Geno makes for a potentially unique addition to Brawl, I do not believe he "belongs" in this roster for 2 big reasons. (Important: although the first part of this post concentrates on my reasons why Geno wouldn't belong in the roster, the second part of my post outlines a plausible way of making him an important part of the game as well as a playable character)
    Alright! Let's hear it!

    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    Part 1 - Against

    1. Star Power: Geno made his first appearance as one of the playable characters in Super Mario RPG. Since then, he has only made one cameo appearance in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga. Geno simply doesn't have the star power to be featured in the Brawl's playable roster. While one can make the argument that there are characters like Ice Climbers who have only been featured in one game prior to the creation of Smash Bros, the fact that they were the titular characters in a game created solely by Nintendo was enough to put them over the edge.
    I agree and disagree.

    Super Smash Bros. is Nintendo's all-stars game. And All-Stars means All Stars.

    Look at Meta Knight. He has never appeared in a game of his own. All the games he appears in is a Kirby game. Though he isn't the main character, he plays an important role in the Kirby Series.

    The same can be said for King Dedede. Though, King Dedede and Meta Knight are two main antagonist in the Kirby series, Geno plays a similarly important role in the one game he does star/co-star in.

    Pokemon Trainer is a fine example, as well.

    The only established fact about Pokemon Trainer as a character is that he was the character in the first generation Pokemon games.

    He didn't star in any game. He was just the character sprite you controlled. The true stars of the Pokemon games are the Pokemon.

    Though, it could be said that he was a kind of 'Main' character of the first generation Pokemon games, and that he's appeared in several games.

    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    As a matter of fact, a number of roster characters have had minimal game time. Pit has only been in two games (not counting cameo appearances) while newcomer Olimar has only been featured in two games as well. What sets these characters apart from Geno is the fact that these characters were the sole main characters of the games they starred in. They single handedly represent their respective Nintendo franchises and as a result, carry the star power needed to obtain a position on the roster.
    I disagree with this point as well.

    For those who played Super Mario RPG, a lot of people believe Geno is a sort of icon representing the game itself. This isn't some sort of fanboy-ish incoherent rambling.

    Geno really did contribute the most to the story. That's what makes him some-what more of a main character than Mario.

    Though, the game is Super Mario RPG, and Mario is the main character you control. It was Geno that was trying to fix the star-road that was shattered, and Geno who brought the pieces back in the end.

    That, and Mario is already in the game. It would be a relationship not unlike Kirby and Meta Knight.


    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    2. Third Party Power - What sets Geno apart from other confirmed third party characters as well as other potential third party participants is his lack of third party power. Solid Snake not only represents the Metal Gear franchise, but also Konami as a whole. Likewise, Sonic not only represents the Sonic franchise, but also the entire Sega corporation. Geno, whose rights are owned by Square-Enix, just doesn't have the power to represent Square as a corporation.
    Ah, but there's a paradox here. I'm sure that you've done your research on this, so you know what I mean when I mention the like-limbo '2nd and a half Party'.

    Geno isn't a full fledged 3rd Party character. At least, not in the normal sense, anyways. If he were to be put in the game, Geno wouldn't need to represent a new series, much less a new company.

    Geno is more or less a Mario character that just happens to be owned by a 3rd party corporation.

    And there is no written law that 3rd parties need to represent the company they are from.

    In fact, for Square to allow Geno to be in the game is the most logical of all the characters they could donate. A character that has an established fan base and originated on a Nintendo console and hasn't been seen on any other console.

    Though, it could be said that Square cares only about advertising their company.

    but I don't think that.

    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    I agree that it Square would probably have no problem lending Geno to the creative minds behind the Smash franchise.
    He obviously doesn't cost much if Nintendo made him a mere cameo in a game.

    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    In fact, if Nintendo really pushed for it, I don't see why Square would object to selling all rights to the character to the Nintendo corporation as I doubt Square has any long term plans for Geno.
    Sad but true.

    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    If a character was going to come out of Square-Enix, it would be a character that would be able to bear the weight of representing a multi-million dollar company. Other potential third party characters (Megaman comes to mind) have much more third party power than Geno has.
    But then the question comes up, who would they donate?

    When you think Square, who do you think of? Cloud comes to mind, but he hasn't appeared on a Nintendo console.

    (Actually, he has. The Kingdom Hearts GBA game.)

    Next in line would be Sora. He's recognizable, has an established fan base, and has made an appearance on a Nintendo console. Though, he ranked low in the polls, and would Square go through the trouble to convince Disney as well?

    Next would be a character from the NES or SNES Final Fantasy games. But those characters have smaller, and more scattered fan base.

    The most logical character from that stand-point would be Geno, in my opinion.

    He has a large fan base, ranked high on the polls, and they have no use of him as of now. Geno would be an easy, quick, and cheap way to be represented in Smash Bros.

    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    Part 2 - Geno in Brawl

    I'm not saying that Geno won't happen, especially since he scored so high in Sakurai's poll and dozens of predicted rosters have included him in the list. If he were to be included, Sakurai would have to do it in a way so that Geno would obtain Star Power by being in Brawl. Let me explain this thought:

    The Subspace Emissary puts our heroes up against some of the biggest villains in Nintendo history. However, although characters like Bowser and Dedede are clearly up to no good, we know there is a driving force behind all the events that occur in this game. The Subspace Army, led by the Ancient Minister is the main antagonist that ties together all the bosses and bad guys we face during the game.

    Likewise, it would make sense for the Subspace Emissary to have a main protagonist who could tie together all the good guys we come across. Geno happens to fit the bill, especially since his character is a spirit that stands for good and balance.

    With the power to bring any inanimate object to life, his role in this game does not need to be limited by the doll that appears predominantly in Super Mario RPG. Although this would most likely be his main form, Geno could breathe life into many surrounding objects (rocks, broken Subspace machines) to guide the stumped player through the game.

    This way, Geno would be launched from Mario's one-time sidekick to main protagonist of one of Nintendo's biggest games of 2008. Not to mention, it would make thousands of fans happy to see their most wanted character represented in a new, original way.

    Thoughts? Discussion?
    While I don't think he'd be the main character of Super Smash Bros, he does seem to fit the bill in a world of trophies, doesn't he?

    And Snake's role in sub-space is rather mysterious. With Metal Gear's gritty and mature story-lines, if Sakurai could integrate Snake, he can integrate anyone!

    You raise some pretty good points! I can't say I did my best to counter them because I feel like I did a poor job.

    Anyways, good post!
    Last edited by AtomicB; 01-09-2008 at 04:08 PM.
    GAME OVER

  4. #4
    Chaka Chaka Pata Pon! Damascus's Avatar
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    We predicted Olimar and Pikmin... Everyone laughed and thought of it like a joke... and then BAM!

    Olimar and Pikmin are coming to Brawl.


    Why not Geno?
    If you want to add me in Brawl, PM me that you're going to (and include your brawl name and friend code). Also, PM me if you delete me, so I can delete your name, too. I need space, ya know.
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  5. #5
    MS3 naisatoh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicB
    Look at Meta Knight. He has never appeared in a game of his own. All the games he appears in is a Kirby game. Though he isn't the main character, he plays an important role in the Kirby Series.

    The same can be said for King Dedede. Though, King Dedede and Meta Knight are two main antagonist in the Kirby series, Geno plays a similarly important role in the one game he does star/co-star in.
    It's true that Meta Knight and King Dedede have not appeared in their own games, and it's true that Meta Knight has not even been a stable character in the Kirby franchise. King Dedede holds just as important of a spot as King Bowser of Ganondorf, as he Kirby's arch nemesis. And as for Meta Knight, let's not forget that as the creator of the Kirby franchise, Sakurai really reserves the right to include any of his own characters in Brawl. It just so happens he's only chosen to include the three (as far as we know).

    Pokemon Trainer is a fine example, as well.

    The only established fact about Pokemon Trainer as a character is that he was the character in the first generation Pokemon games.

    He didn't star in any game. He was just the character sprite you controlled. The true stars of the Pokemon games are the Pokemon.

    Though, it could be said that he was a kind of 'Main' character of the first generation Pokemon games, and that he's appeared in several games.
    Also true that Pokemon Trainer himself is not the true star, which is exactly why he stands in the background, while the Pokemon themselves (the true stars) do the fighting. Just like in the Pokemon games, the trainer acts as a liason between the player and the pokemon they use. The Pokemon Trainer's presentation really isn't much different.

    For those who played Super Mario RPG, a lot of people believe Geno is a sort of icon representing the game itself. This isn't some sort of fanboy-ish incoherent rambling.

    Geno really did contribute the most to the story. That's what makes him some-what more of a main character than Mario.

    Though, the game is Super Mario RPG, and Mario is the main character you control. It was Geno that was trying to fix the star-road that was shattered, and Geno who brought the pieces back in the end.

    That, and Mario is already in the game. It would be a relationship not unlike Kirby and Meta Knight.
    I can see where you're coming from with this, but one can make the same argument with Super Mario Galaxy. Although Mario is the clear protagonist (as the title of the game has his name in it), one could argue that Rosalina is the true main character, as it is her spaceship that requires the star pieces for it to fly properly. And although underlying goal of Galaxy is to save the princess, the underlying goal of SMRPG is to reclaim Bowser's castle. The collection of the stars in both games serve as means to an end.


    Ah, but there's a paradox here. I'm sure that you've done your research on this, so you know what I mean when I mention the like-limbo '2nd and a half Party'.

    Geno isn't a full fledged 3rd Party character. At least, not in the normal sense, anyways. If he were to be put in the game, Geno wouldn't need to represent a new series, much less a new company.

    Geno is more or less a Mario character that just happens to be owned by a 3rd party corporation.
    I have read about the "2nd and a half Party" argument, and while it makes sense, I actually feel that the fact that the character cannot fully represent one or the other actually hurts its cause.

    And there is no written law that 3rd parties need to represent the company they are from.
    Of course there's no written law.. There really aren't any laws that govern what belongs or doesn't belong in the game. It's just a matter of what makes sense. If Nintendo is going to be using third party characters, it is in the interest of both parties that the character is easily identifiable.

    Though, it could be said that Square cares only about advertising their company.

    but I don't think that.
    Don't forget, you're talking about a company relying on a few select franchises to make a profit. I think it's safe to say that Square will do anything to milk a buck (Final Fantasy VII collection, anyone?)


    But then the question comes up, who would they donate?

    When you think Square, who do you think of? Cloud comes to mind, but he hasn't appeared on a Nintendo console.

    (Actually, he has. The Kingdom Hearts GBA game.)

    Next in line would be Sora. He's recognizable, has an established fan base, and has made an appearance on a Nintendo console. Though, he ranked low in the polls, and would Square go through the trouble to convince Disney as well?

    Next would be a character from the NES or SNES Final Fantasy games. But those characters have smaller, and more scattered fan base.

    The most logical character from that stand-point would be Geno, in my opinion.

    He has a large fan base, ranked high on the polls, and they have no use of him as of now. Geno would be an easy, quick, and cheap way to be represented in Smash Bros.
    Valid point.. though I feel that of the possible third party characters to be included, Square wouldn't be in my list..

    Not really much of an argument for one thing or another. Just thought I would respond before heading to bed. I apologize, but don't expect much more out of me in the next few days. I had the day off, and had some time to browse the boards. I don't usually have this luxury.

    Official SSBB Soundtrack Thread (with links!):
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  6. #6
    WiiChat Member sorabrawl's Avatar
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    no geno!!!!
    they can put much better characters on brawl!

  7. #7
    WiiChat Member alexbel's Avatar
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    isnt star power in guitar hero
    credit goes to MRvisiter on the castle crashers fourm

  8. #8
    Status: Idle AtomicB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    It's true that Meta Knight and King Dedede have not appeared in their own games, and it's true that Meta Knight has not even been a stable character in the Kirby franchise. King Dedede holds just as important of a spot as King Bowser of Ganondorf, as he Kirby's arch nemesis. And as for Meta Knight, let's not forget that as the creator of the Kirby franchise, Sakurai really reserves the right to include any of his own characters in Brawl. It just so happens he's only chosen to include the three (as far as we know).
    Assist Trophies.

    Yeah, I'm bringing them into the mix here. Just give me a second and I'll explain.

    Few get more specific than Saki Amamiya of Sin & Punishment.
    Few get more vague than Devil.
    Few get more fun to mess with than Mr. Resetti.
    Few get more "WTF?!" than Dr. Wright.

    My point is, Smash Bros. is about Nintendo characters (and more) getting their fist into each other's face!

    It really shouldn't matter how important their role is in a game. I mean, Dr.Mario? Seriously, even if it's Mr.M himself, it's a terrible spin off... Yet he some how made the cut with Sakurai anyways.

    And regardless, Geno my not have been Mario of Super Mario RPG, but he sure as hezeck played an important role! And I think it's obvious that his fan base is really freaking huge.

    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    Also true that Pokemon Trainer himself is not the true star, which is exactly why he stands in the background, while the Pokemon themselves (the true stars) do the fighting. Just like in the Pokemon games, the trainer acts as a liason between the player and the pokemon they use. The Pokemon Trainer's presentation really isn't much different.
    Yes, but regardless, they put them under "Pokemon Trainer". Now why would Sakurai do that?

    Why not just develop them as separate characters, not have the Stamina meter, and make them each on character?

    It would widen the roster, too!

    My guess is he was like,
    "Hm. You know what'd be fun?"

    Sakurai has proven himself to be a sucker for unique characters. I think he knew that he could use those starters how he did, and it'd make for a unique character!

    Geno is a unique character.
    I mean, seriously? Who names their kid '♥♪!?' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    I can see where you're coming from with this, but one can make the same argument with Super Mario Galaxy. Although Mario is the clear protagonist (as the title of the game has his name in it), one could argue that Rosalina is the true main character, as it is her spaceship that requires the star pieces for it to fly properly. And although underlying goal of Galaxy is to save the princess, the underlying goal of SMRPG is to reclaim Bowser's castle. The collection of the stars in both games serve as means to an end.
    But Rosalina's story was completely optional. Yeah, it was part of the story, but Rosalina herself didn't really contribute much to the game. She isn't a character that sticks in your mind even after the game is good and done.

    That's why she's just an AT.


    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    I have read about the "2nd and a half Party" argument, and while it makes sense, I actually feel that the fact that the character cannot fully represent one or the other actually hurts its cause.
    I don't see Lucas being the representer of Earthbound, Nintendo, or anything! He's "The New Kid".

    When I think Earthbound, I think Ness in his pajamas checking out his neighborhood at night because he has terrible parents
    he has parents that let him examine crash sites at night and have poor parental skills.

    And I don't think third party characters have to really represent their company.

    I mean, I don't think,
    "Sweet! Sega got in Brawl!"
    Or,
    "Righteous! Square got in Brawl!"
    ^^^^^^
    NO NO NO NO NO!

    But who knows? Maybe game companies are a bunch of corporate swines!

    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    Of course there's no written law.. There really aren't any laws that govern what belongs or doesn't belong in the game. It's just a matter of what makes sense. If Nintendo is going to be using third party characters, it is in the interest of both parties that the character is easily identifiable.
    Tied for second in the polls?


    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    Don't forget, you're talking about a company relying on a few select franchises to make a profit. I think it's safe to say that Square will do anything to milk a buck (Final Fantasy VII collection, anyone?)
    ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

    Square Enix is one of the biggest multi-bigillion dollar game developers in the world! Every game they come out with sells! Even the spin-offs! Attach 'Final Fantasy' or 'Dragon Quest' to it's name and it'll sell millions!

    That, and if Square will do anything to milk a buck than why wouldn't they put in Geno? Better have one representative that none, right? I mean, either way, they get money.

    And I think Nintendo would be approaching them for a character. Not the other way around. So they'd want the cheapest and most Brawl-able character.

    Geno, anybody?


    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    Valid point.. though I feel that of the possible third party characters to be included, Square wouldn't be in my list..
    Ah-hah! Biased!
    Well then Geno would be quite the surprise, wouldn't he?


    Quote Originally Posted by naisatoh
    Not really much of an argument for one thing or another. Just thought I would respond before heading to bed. I apologize, but don't expect much more out of me in the next few days. I had the day off, and had some time to browse the boards. I don't usually have this luxury.
    That bites. I "Don't" either. I have animation to do! I challenged MdotStrange and he accepted.

    TIME TO BRING IT ON! SUNDANCE! HERE I COME!
    GAME OVER

  9. #9
    Wants SSBB NOW!!! >.< Vdogam3r's Avatar
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    How do u do the heart symbol?

    Made by idjut

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vdogam3r
    How do u do the heart symbol?

    .nostaW yratnemelE
    Just use the Character Map under Accessories
    GAME OVER

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