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Thread: Why MetaKnight (MK) is the most Broken Character in SSBB

  1. #41
    The Scrubbiest of Hunters Splash_King's Avatar
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    ... Our training session was that frustrating, King? Sorry about that.

    Ahem.. I'll agree with the above though, MK indeed is the most frustrating enemy to face.. besides a spamming campy Snake, anyways. Getting around his prioritized offenses is even more annoying, possible, but annoying. Doing so much for a single character calls for that character to be labeled over powered, no?

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    The Grammar Police kingslayer's Avatar
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    Ya, you probably thought I wasn't as good as I could be... because I got bored. Well... frustrated might be a better word. It's okay though, the biggest problem is I don't have music while playing. My skills were reduced by at least 20%, I'm not exaggerating, once I lost my way of listening to music while playing. I can just never get into the "SSBB mode" anymore... and it makes me blow / lose interest easily.

    But just because it frustrated me doesn't mean it's a bad thing, it means I need more practice against MK.

    It may not seem like it, but I've not played many 1v1s. Before I played you (and wuwi played a ton with me), I maybe had done 20-30 1v1s before that. Only two other people your level / Wuwi's level (Lloyd + Gio0o), so I don't have much experience with 1v1s.

    That's why I've been so adamant about trying to practice, I NEED it.

    To stay on topic:
    A big thing about facing a good (let alone expert) MK player is a lot of mind games. If you can predict what move he'll use, or where he'll land, you can easily bypass his priority.

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    WiiChat Member Diomedes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingslayer View Post
    A big thing about facing a good (let alone expert) MK player is a lot of mind games. If you can predict what move he'll use, or where he'll land, you can easily bypass his priority.
    Ditto, once you've gained a good understanding of brawl's characters and engine, it's all about the mind games and having the best defense.

  4. #44
    Turkish RPG Master RPGMasterTurk91's Avatar
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    The ONLY reason I'm reviving this thread is because I'VE been revived back into this site, I haven't been on in many months due to lack of time and priorities set elsewhere.

    If a mod wishes to close/lock of this post, let him or her do it (of course, I discourage them from doing so, especially since we have a brand new, large group of WiiChatters who were not present at the time of the initial post). If not, we can continue the calm debate as to why or why not Meta Knight is considered a broken character. Honestly, I haven't been able to play brawl much (I played twice in the past four months), but I love a debate and it is still a relevant issue.

    On that note, I noticed people were very iffy with the word "broken". When someone says "Meta Knight is broken", or any other characters for that matter, they have never meant that there is no way of beating that character--they just mean that certain aspects are unnecessary emphasized too much (and thus OVERPOWERED) that allows for too much ease that eventually leads to a higher chance of winning just by picking that character. I will still call it broken, my only other alternative being "extremely overpowered".

    Basically, Meta Knight is a Melee character in Brawl--his overall speed on land and in air is comparable and too similar to fast characters in MELEE, imagine playing as someone from Brawl (generally slower) and versing someone from Melee with the Melee mechanics, the match would be considered uneven--but in several ways, one of which being the overall atmosphere, making it much easier to win with the "melee-atmosphered" character. It's not that the Melee characters are better per say, but that their surroundings are "strong against" the Brawl mechs and setup. Pitting two people in different video games with the same health bars, one of them is bound to win.

    I also keep seeing people saying "you can easily work past the defenses if you know how to mind game". It's not that easy, and it requires lots of thinking and dodging bullets. The thing is, while you have to go through a lot to "pass" the priority of MK, MK needs little to no work getting past you, on or off stage. The match is already rigged, and he is equipped with an unrealistic moveset that makes him tough to deal with both on and off stage. So while you can mind game ANY character and dodge BULLETS (because bullets aren't easy to dodge, that's why I'm using that metaphor) for a while, when the only thing that character has to do is get one hit on you and you lose, it doesn't matter in the end. <--That was a general example showing how something can be rigged no matter how good you are.

    I have to go to class for now, but I look forward to continuing to debate and/or agree with others in the near future like we have done in the past. Peace.
    Last edited by RPGMasterTurk91; 10-01-2009 at 11:49 AM.
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  5. #45
    Not Here Shadow*91's Avatar
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    while your not supposed to revive threads(even your own), if you have a valid reason its usually okay.

    mindgames against Meta are hard to pull off but if you can then you've pretty much rendered him powerless. if you can outpredict a Meta then he's no threat.

    heres what i mean; at the last tourney i entered my first opponent was Meta. I choose Kirby and the stage was Battlefield. he would be coming at me and at first he was winning. But then i started to see through his strategy and predict him. the result was he barely landed any hits for the rest of the match. now this guy wasn't a pro, but he was way better then your average Meta.

    its hard but outpreducting Meta makes him harmless

  6. #46
    Turkish RPG Master RPGMasterTurk91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow*91 View Post
    while your not supposed to revive threads(even your own), if you have a valid reason its usually okay.

    mindgames against Meta are hard to pull off but if you can then you've pretty much rendered him powerless. if you can outpredict a Meta then he's no threat.

    heres what i mean; at the last tourney i entered my first opponent was Meta. I choose Kirby and the stage was Battlefield. he would be coming at me and at first he was winning. But then i started to see through his strategy and predict him. the result was he barely landed any hits for the rest of the match. now this guy wasn't a pro, but he was way better then your average Meta.

    its hard but outpreducting Meta makes him harmless
    While what you say is true to an extent, it doesn't change the fact that with MK you can still move around clumsily and if the opponent is lucky enough they will hit. So while you saw through and predicted this particular person, Meta Knight still has his unrealistic speed and priority to rely on as a sort of ultimate defense, something other characters simply do not have. It all goes down to the same concept: the match becomes rigged; if you beat a Meta Knight, chances are your skill level is actually significently greater than the Meta Knight you faced, or you got really lucky.
    Last edited by RPGMasterTurk91; 10-28-2009 at 12:29 AM.
    "Many religions within a nation causes little conflict, but two religions within a nation is nothing less than conflict."
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  7. #47
    Junior Member SolidSense's Avatar
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    Whether or not Meta Knight is actually broken, I have to disagree with the logic of your argument; some of your claims are also simply untrue and many of the terms you use (e.g. atmosphere) are exceptionally vague.

    his overall speed on land and in air is comparable and too similar to fast characters in MELEE
    Empty claims such as these leave me scratching my head.

    Meta Knight is _extremely_ slow in the air; in fact, his airspeed is one of the slowest in the entire game. If you play Meta Knight, you'll have noticed that his wings tend to impede easy movement through the air. Even _Jigglypuff_ is faster than Meta Knight in the air. Kirby and Dedede are about the same.

    You might say--so what? He's still fast on land. True enough, he's fast, but three points:

    1.) You were talking about overall speed, not just land speed.
    2.) Other characters are comparably fast on the land--Diddy Kong, Sonic, etc.--without having Meta's slow airspeed.
    3.) Airspeed is absolutely critical to playing against certain characters like Snake. In fact, many pro Snakes and pro Marths now actually claim that Marth has an easier time defeating Snake than Meta Knight does--indeed, this is true. Meta vs. Snake is even while Marth vs. Snake is very slightly in Marth's favor--why? Simple: airspeed. Because Marth is faster in the air, he can actually approach Snake. Meta tries to do so and what happens? Meta eats a Snakedash (yes, Snakedash goes through MK's f-air), gets grabbed (Meta's aerials are highly susceptible to shieldgrabs), or gets f-tilted upon landing.

    Now, had you said aerial manueverability, your claim would have had more leverage. Having five jumps certainly gives MK a lot of leeway and many options--but note that the most mobile character in the air is actually Wario, and that the highest jumps actually belong to Falco; Meta is impressive as far as aerial manueverability, sure, but the gap between Meta's mobility and that of other characters' is not terribly great.

    Finally, as relates to aerials, yes, Meta has fast aerials. This is probably what gives you the feeling that MK has speed. In fact, Meta's aerials are his most notable asset.

    I'll paraphrase one of your more implicit points:

    Meta's specials have priority, and his moves have priority in general
    First, Meta only has two specials worth using most of the time--Tornado and Shuttle Loop. His dimensional cape attack, regardless of its priority, is almost worthless except for occasional mindgames, and his side-b is extremely easy to predict and shield (it also is extremely punishable because of its tremendous lag).

    Second, Shuttle Loop itself is not that safe to use, especially if you're below the opponent. Many d-airs in the game go right through it--you can never S. Loop Donkey Kong, for example (even a u-air is dangerous because of that d-air). For certain characters like Snake, it might be safe, but in many, many cases (the most annoying cases are Toon Link and Game and Watch, who will always d-air you and kill you when you S. Loop), Shuttle Loop simply is not appealing.

    You claim that Tornado will go through "any attack" but you provide absolutely no empirical evidence to support this claim; did you know that Dedede's d-tilt actually goes through Tornado? Or Dedede's f-air? Or Snake's u-tilt? Or ZSS' side-b? Or Game and Watch's d-tilt, f-smash, d-smash, f-air, and b-air? Did you know that characters such as ZSS and Olimar can actually grab MK out of his Tornado? Did you know that nearly half of the projectiles in the game go through Tornado? This includes the very important Falco lasers (Wolf's blaster shots also go through, in case you were wondering).

    Yes, Tornado is a fantastic move; I fail to see how it's broken, however. Also, do note that it can be shielded--if you tilt your shield up, you can make it last through the whole animation and subsequently punish MK.

    In fact, Meta Knight would be better if he had Snake's grenades (or perhaps Pit's arrows) instead of his Tornado.

    You make the claim that MK's recovery outweighs his lightness--to me, this seems like another unsubstantiated claim. Yes, MK has the best recovery in the game, but what good is recovery going to do him when he's one of the lightest characters in the game? If you're getting star-KO'ed, you can't really recover, now can you? According to Mew2king's weight charts, MK is only heavier than a few characters in the game--characters like Game and Watch, Jigglypuff, and Squirtle. Snake's u-tilt can kill Meta at 100% easily, or possibly lower if the stage has a low ceiling (e.g., Halberd). Wario's 2-minute fart can spike-kill Meta at 30%, and his 1-minute fart kills at 70%. Dedede's u-tilt is similar to Snake's. Marth's tipper f-smash can do the job at 80% or so depending on stage. Meta Knight basically needs his recovery in order to be a Top Tier character--if he didn't have exceptional recovery, his lightness would murder him.

    You say that the combination of speed, range, and priority make Meta Knight broken--that no other character in the game has such an unrealistic combination. I ask, then, what about Snake? Snake's attacks are also extremely fast--f-tilt, for example, is a 6-frame move, which is the same as Meta Knight's f-air. F-tilt also outranges _every single one of Meta Knight's attacks_ except for d-tilt and side-b. And Snake's projectiles such as u-smash and grenade offer ridiculous range--they're not even comparable to conventional projectiles because of their power and ability to remain on the field. They're more like extended attacks than anything. Snake has a lot more priority than Meta Knight, as well. This applies to literally all of Snake's moves--no move that Meta Knight has can outprioritize a Snake move.

    As long as we're on the subject of priority, let me just point out that Meta Knight's regular attacks actually don't have inhuman priority. Game and Watch's attacks have more priority than Meta Knight's--b-air, d-air, etc. go through Shuttle Loop, for example, as well as all of Meta's aerials. Wario's Bite and fart have more priority. Snake has more priority. Link, Ganondorf, and Dedede all have more aerial and ground priority (yes, both). Even Peach has more priority--Peach's u-tilt has more priority than _any_ move Meta Knight has. Please convincingly demonstrate that Meta Knight's priority is excellent or even close to absurd. Comopared to substandard-priority characters like Sonic and Jigglypuff? Certainly. But these characters are substandard for a reason (namely, priority and range).

    Range? Of his fellow Top Tiers, Snake, Dedede, and Marth all substantially outrange Meta Knight, and Game and Watch and Diddy are hardly far behind. Wario, sure. Falco? Well, yes, but he has lasers and chaingrabbing anyway; he doesn't need to outrange because he won't be using his tilts on Meta Knight in the most cases. Oh, let me point out that Meta Knight has no dash-attack cancelled u-smash, and his u-smash itself has a terrible hitbox and tremendous lag--all of the other characters I named, especially Snake/Falco and except Dedede, have a DAC u-smash and a fairly good one, I might add. This is an example of MK's deficiencies.

    Also, you give little proof as to the actual "unrealistic" nature of this combination of speed, range, and priority. Meta Knight being allowed in competitive play conforms to the status quo--if you would like to see him banned, you are challenging the status quo. Therefore, the burden of proof falls on you. Where is your empirical evidence? I can detail a number of aspects where Meta Knight comes up subpar and list a number of match-ups which are either even or even possibly against him (Snake, for example).

    Did you know that the best Meta Knight player in the world and former Melee Marth champion, Mew2king, recently lost a total of 3 tourneys to the world's best Snake, Ally? Or that a Diddy Kong player, ADHD, beat both Ally and Mew2king in the same tournament? Of course, such examples don't prove that Meta Knight isn't broken; they're matters of skill, I freely admit--however, if Meta Knight were truly broken, then at the _absolute_ top level, it would make sense that the best Meta Knight would consistently trump the best players of other characters. This, however, is not the case, making it highly doubtful that Meta Knight is, in fact, worthy of being deemed broken.

    You also say that you have played pro Meta Knights--who, pray tell, are these pros you speak of? As a tournygoer, I'm fairly positive I know all of the big names in Brawl. Ally, Mew2king, DSF, Fiction, Anther, Tyrant, Dojo, DEHF, teh_spamerer, Afro Thundah, chudat, Lain, Azen, perhaps? Or, maybe not quite at the top professional level--meep, SK92, HugS, etc? Claiming to have played or beaten pros is well and good, but the claim goes unsubstantiated unless you can actually name these pros.

    Why? Because particular pros have particular weaknesses. There may well be a Snake pro who occasionally loses to Captain Falcon, for example (and I know of one who does), but that doesn't mean that the average Snake pro will lose to Captain Falcon. Ally is the best C. Falcon player--and I mean quite literally the best--yet he cannot defeat Snake pros using Falcon. It's tried and tested.
    Last edited by SolidSense; 10-24-2009 at 06:23 PM.

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    WiiChat Member BradBoz's Avatar
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    I heard this a lot but...I think they just dont like his attacks because they are weak. I like being him because I went to this ADHD group, All girls. In sudden death, I killed 2, but 1 left. I fly around around until she gets hits by a bomb! It works, try it!
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    Not Here Shadow*91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolidSense View Post
    Whether or not Meta Knight is actually broken, I have to disagree with the logic of your argument; some of your claims are also simply untrue and many of the terms you use (e.g. atmosphere) are exceptionally vague.

    his overall speed on land and in air is comparable and too similar to fast characters in MELEE
    Empty claims such as these leave me scratching my head.

    Meta Knight is _extremely_ slow in the air; in fact, his airspeed is one of the slowest in the entire game. If you play Meta Knight, you'll have noticed that his wings tend to impede easy movement through the air.

    You might say--so what? He's still fast on land. True enough, he's fast, but three points:

    1.) You were talking about overall speed, not just land speed.
    2.) Other characters are comparably fast on the land--Diddy Kong, Sonic, etc.--without having Meta's slow airspeed.
    3.) Airspeed is absolutely critical to playing against certain characters like Snake. In fact, many pro Snakes and pro Marths now actually claim that Marth has an easier time defeating Snake than Meta Knight does--indeed, this is true. Meta vs. Snake is even while Marth vs. Snake is very slightly in Marth's favor--why? Simple: airspeed. Because Marth is faster in the air, he can actually approach Snake. Meta tries to do so and what happens? Meta eats a Snakedash (yes, Snakedash goes through MK's f-air), gets grabbed (Meta's aerials are highly susceptible to shieldgrabs), or gets f-tilted upon landing.

    Now, had you said aerial manueverability, your claim would have had more leverage. Having five jumps certainly gives MK a lot of leeway and many options--but note that the most mobile character in the air is actually Wario, and that the highest jumps actually belong to Falco; Meta is impressive as far as aerial manueverability, sure, but the gap between Meta's mobility and that of other characters' is not terribly great.

    Finally, as relates to aerials, yes, Meta has fast aerials. This is probably what gives you the feeling that MK has speed. In fact, Meta's aerials are his most notable asset.

    I'll paraphrase one of your more implicit points:

    Meta's specials have priority, and his moves have priority in general
    First, Meta only has two specials worth using most of the time--Tornado and Shuttle Loop. His dimensional cape attack, regardless of its priority, is almost worthless except for occasional mindgames, and his side-b is extremely easy to predict and shield (it also is extremely punishable because of its tremendous lag).

    Second, Shuttle Loop itself is not that safe to use, especially if you're below the opponent. Many d-airs in the game go right through it--you can never S.Loop Donkey Kong, for example. For certain characters like Snake, it might be safe, but in many, many cases (the most annoying cases are Toon Link and Game and Watch, Shuttle Loop simply is not appealing).

    You claim that Tornado will go through "any attack" but you provide absolutely no empirical evidence to support this claim; did you know that Dedede's d-tilt actually goes through Tornado? Or Dedede's f-air? Or Snake's u-tilt? Or ZSS' side-b? Or Game and Watch's d-tilt, f-smash, d-smash, f-air, and b-air? Did you know that characters such as ZSS and Olimar can actually grab MK out of his Tornado? Do you know that nearly half of the projectiles in the game go through Tornado? This includes the very important Falco lasers (Wolf's blaster shots also go through, in case you were wondering).

    Yes, Tornado is a fantastic move; I fail to see how it's broken, however. Also, do note that it can be shielded--if you tilt your shield up, you can make it last through the whole animation and subsequently punish MK.

    In fact, Meta Knight would be better if he had Snake's grenades (or perhaps Pit's arrows) instead of his Tornado.

    You make the claim that MK's recovery outweighs his lightness--to me, this seems like another unsubstantiated claim. Yes, MK has the best recovery in the game, but what good is recovery going to do him when he's one of the lightest characters in the game? If you're getting star-KO'ed, you can't really recover, now can you? According to Mew2king's weight charts, MK is only heavier than a few characters in the game--characters like Game and Watch, Jigglypuff, and Squirtle. Snake's u-tilt can kill Meta at 100% easily, or possibly lower if the stage has a low ceiling (e.g., Halberd). Wario's 2-minute fart can spike-kill Meta at 30%, and his 1-minute fart kills at 70%. Dedede's u-tilt is similar to Snake's. Marth's tipper f-smash can do the job at 80% or so depending on stage. Meta Knight basically needs his recovery in order to be a Top Tier character--if he didn't have exceptional recovery, his lightness would murder him.

    You say that the combination of speed, range, and priority make Meta Knight broken--that no other character in the game has such an unrealistic combination. I ask, then, what about Snake? Snake's attacks are also extremely fast--f-tilt, for example, is a 6-frame move, which is the same as Meta Knight's f-air. F-tilt also outranges _every single one of Meta Knight's attacks_ except for d-tilt and side-b. And Snake's projectiles such as u-smash and grenade offer ridiculous range--they're not even comparable to conventional projectiles because of their power and ability to remain on the field. They're more like extended attacks than anything.

    Snake has a lot more priority than Meta Knight, as well. As long as we're on the subject of priority, let me just point out that Meta Knight's regular attacks actually don't have inhuman priority. Game and Watch's attacks have more priority than Meta Knight's--b-air, d-air, etc. go through Shuttle Loop, for example, as well as most of Meta's aerials. Wario's Bite and fart have more priority. Snake has more priority. Link, Ganondorf, and Dedede all have more aerial and ground priority (yes, both). Even Peach has more priority--Peach's u-tilt has more priority than _any_ move Meta Knight has. Please convincingly demonstrate that Meta Knight's priority is excellent or even close to absurd. Comopared to substandard-priority characters like Sonic and Jigglypuff? Certainly. But these characters are substandard for a reason.

    Range? Snake, Dedede, and Marth all substantially outrange Meta Knight, and Game and Watch and Diddy are hardly far behind. Wario, sure? Falco? Well, yes, but he has lasers and chaingrabbing anyway; he doesn't need to outrange because he won't be using his tilts on Meta Knight in the most cases. Oh, let me point out that Meta Knight has no dash-attack cancelled u-smash, and his u-smash itself has a terrible hitbox and tremendous lag--all of the other characters I named, especially Snake/Falco and except Dedede, have a DAC u-smash and a fairly good one, I might add. This is an example of MK's deficiencies.

    Also, you give little proof as to the actual "unrealistic" nature of this combination of speed, range, and priority. Meta Knight being allowed in competitive play conforms to the status quo--if you would like to see him banned, you are challenging the status quo. Therefore, the burden of proof falls on you. Where is your empirical evidence? I can detail a number of aspects where Meta Knight comes up subpar and list a number of match-ups which are either even or even possibly against him (Snake, for example).

    Did you know that the best Meta Knight player in the world and former Melee Marth champion, Mew2king, recently lost a total of 3 tourneys to the world's best Snake, Ally? Or that a Diddy Kong player, ADHD, beat both Ally and Mew2king in the same tournament? Of course, such examples don't prove that Meta Knight isn't broken; they're matters of skill, I freely admit--however, if Meta Knight were truly broken, then at the _absolute_ top level, it would make sense that the best Meta Knight would consistently trump the best players of other characters. This, however, is not the case, making it highly doubtful that Meta Knight is, in fact, worthy of being deemed broken.

    You also say that you have played pro Meta Knights--who, pray tell, are these pros you speak of? As a tournygoer, I'm fairly positive I know all of the big names in Brawl. Ally, Mew2king, DSF, Fiction, Anther, Tyrant, Dojo, DEHF, teh_spamerer, Afro Thundah, chudat, Lain, Azen, perhaps? Or, maybe not quite at the top professional level--meep, SK92, HugS, etc? Claiming to have played or beaten pros is well and good, but the claim goes unsubstantiated unless you can actually name these pros.

    Why? Because particular pros have particular weaknesses. There may well be a Snake pro who occasionally loses to Captain Falcon, for example (and I know of one who does), but that doesn't mean that the average Snake pro will lose to Captain Falcon. Ally is the best C. Falcon player--and I mean quite literally the best--yet he cannot defeat Snake pros using Falcon. It's tried and tested.
    first off, welcome to wiichat.
    secondly, this entire post is win.

  10. #50
    Junior Member SolidSense's Avatar
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    I had to leave before I finished my preceding post, so I have one more thing to address about your argument: your definition in the opening post.

    You say that if 50% of the Brawl community votes for Meta Knight to be banned, he should be. This definition fails for two reasons:

    1.) 50%+ is what is known as a "simple majority," and when making decisions such as actually banning a character from a game, simple majorities are so dangerously close to even splits that it makes no sense to simply assume it as the standard.

    Rather, 66%, which is used in the United States' government, seems much more appropriate for banning a character. Remember, this is challenging the status quo--in the history of smash, no character has ever been banned. The amount of leverage one needs to ban a character should be substantially high; this is not a simple decision. The Brawl elite argue extensively about this issue.

    2.) This is the most important reason, both against your definition and for my posting here at all: banning Meta Knight does not affect everyone. Because this is a discussion of competitive, tourney play, the ban on Meta Knight should not be decided by "50% of people who play Brawl."

    How many people do you think play Brawl? Say, 100,000 worldwide? Of those, how many do you think attend tournaments consistently? 5,000? That's a mere 5%. Of that 5%, how many do you think actually have a shot at winning money consistently (especially at majors or regionals)? Maybe 1,000 at best? So that's 1%. So 50% of the population (of which that 1% might not even be a factor) decides on the fate of 1% of the population. The decision will barely affect 98-99%, yet that 98-99% has the final word (since there are more votes there). Is that fair?

    The ban on Meta Knight should be decided by people whom it actually affects--people who participate in tournaments regularly and, more importantly, people who actually have a stake in the victory--people who could possibly win money from participating (the real professional elites).

    Of course, everything I said in the post 2 posts above this one still applies; this is just an additional, very important item I didn't have time to mention.

    Oh, by the way, I was mistaken about Snake's f-tilt--it actually comes out in 4 frames, which is _faster_ than Meta Knight's f-air. His u-tilt is the move that comes out in 6.

    Everything I said in my previous post and in this one just scratches the surface of this debate; if you want to actually convince any real pro about Meta Knight being broken, you definitely need to use some logically cogent arguments, not just say "this combination is deadly" without substantiating your claim with empirical evidence. Moreover, you're really theorizing in your post; you would need to discuss specific match-ups to make your case, not just discuss Meta Knight by himself.

    I don't mean to insult you; rather, I mean to tell you that your argument has no weight at all--had you presented analyses of Meta Knight vs. Snake, Meta Knight vs. Wario, Meta Knight vs. Falco, etc., and demonstrated convincingly that Meta Knight has an innate advantage against all of these characters, maybe your logic would have seemed more sound. But as it is, you're really not going to be able to convince anyone but those who already believed MK was broken in the first place.

    And to the poster above me, thanks for the welcome.
    Last edited by SolidSense; 10-25-2009 at 12:49 PM.

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