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Thread: Ssbb meta knight

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSBfreakCK View Post
    I don't base what I say on personal experience alone, I base it on both opinionated observations and factual evidence from research and evaluation from both myself, and people multiple times more experienced and qualified than ourselves to back my opinions.

    Witty comebacks and finding grammatical and definition-related loopholes don't compete.
    Then let's see these "facts" you so strongly hold to be true.
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  3. #62
    The Scrubbiest of Kings Splash_King's Avatar
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    If you want to read an absurd amount of tl;dr, then I'd be happy to aid ya. First of all, feel free to read through all of this from our humble Wiichat itself.

    http://www.wiichat.com/forum/brawl-c...cter-ssbb.html

    Then read the first post of here.

    When you've got a 14-0 vote from the pros of the pros, amatuers; particularly someone of your skill level who isn't a tournyfag; can only deny the fact Meta deserved to be banned by a personal opinion that is without reputation or any worth in the smash community. Just like me, I'm sure some of those 14 players mained Meta, but wanted him banned regardless. Because it's so unanimous, there isn't even a need to debate over Meta's being an unbalancing factor in the game anymore; or at least, not with someone who I've already discussed it with. Thus, I'll leave it at this.

    The Vermilion City Guru
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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSBfreakCK View Post
    No graphs, no statistical data? I am dissapoint.
    Quote Originally Posted by SSBfreakCK
    When you've got a 14-0 vote from the pros of the pros, amatuers; particularly someone of your skill level who isn't a tournyfag; can only deny the fact Meta deserved to be banned by a personal opinion that is without reputation or any worth in the smash community. Just like me, I'm sure some of those 14 players mained Meta, but wanted him banned regardless. Because it's so unanimous, there isn't even a need to debate over Meta's being an unbalancing factor in the game anymore; or at least, not with someone who I've already discussed it with. Thus, I'll leave it at this.
    A wise man once said: "It does not prove a thing to be right because the majority say it is so".
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  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by WiiAssasin View Post
    No graphs, no statistical data? I am dissapoint.
    Ah, you should of said so.

    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298484

    Even Snake's match-up chart is so disgustingly advantageous.

    http://www.gytnews.com/articles/news...g-referee.html

    When we're talking strictly about metagame imbalance and completely disregarding how broken Meta is, a guaranteed sign that the metagame is out of balanced and centralized, is when a certain factor that can be chosen, played as, etc. shows up a large percentage of the time, be it in relation to the percentage of other optional factors or a dominating usage percentage over the other highest usage percentage. Taking Meta's broken-ness back into account, metagame imbalance is caused by something that performs too well in the metagame. You can understand the scientific conclusion yourself, I'd imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by WiiAssasin View Post
    A wise man once said: "It does not prove a thing to be right because the majority say it is so".
    If you're talking about society, entirely true. If you're talking about people who know 100% of what they're they're talking about, that nugget of wisdom applies very little, if none at all. When all but a handful of the world's scientists concluded the world wasn't flat, were they correct, or does your quote prove true? :P

    The Vermilion City Guru
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  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSBfreakCK
    Even Snake's match-up chart is so disgustingly advantageous.
    http://www.gytnews.com/articles/news...g-referee.html
    This is just how often a character was used. My quote applies.
    Quote Originally Posted by SSBfreakCK
    If you're talking about society, entirely true. If you're talking about people who know 100% of what they're they're talking about, that nugget of wisdom applies very little, if none at all. When all but a handful of the world's scientists concluded the world wasn't flat, were they correct, or does your quote prove true? :P
    So your saying the issue of the Earth being flat was settled...... by a vote?
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  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by WiiAssasin View Post
    This is just how often a character was used. My quote applies.
    So, you're ignoring my entire paragraph on metagame talk? Saying "nourlieing" does little to help your side of things. How about a legitimate response? :P

    Quote Originally Posted by WiiAssasin View Post
    So your saying the issue of the Earth being flat was settled...... by a vote?
    Is that shallow cleverness, or are you actually confused in how I was giving an example to show that quote of yours isn't applicable 100% of the time?

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  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSBfreakCK View Post
    Is that shallow cleverness, or are you actually confused in how I was giving an example to show that quote of yours isn't applicable 100% of the time?
    It applies 100% to everything!
    If you did not understand it, here it is: You shouldn't believe something is a fact just because everyone said so. More data than just a simple "vote" is required.
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  9. #68
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    There is more data to it, of course. You saw the usage statistic, and if you understand the science behind the metagame and how it unbalances/understood my paragraph summary on it, that shows a lot of evidence towards my side of the argument. Moreso, those 14 votes aren't any 14 votes. They're pros at the game, they're the tournywinners and the people who work in the BBR. The people who make tier lists and over many years, have put an incredible amount of work, debate, and research in the type match-up chart. The people who organize entire tournaments and understand competitive Brawl to a nigh-perfect point.

    There's plenty more evidence and argument as well, but if you're not willing to consider the possibility you're wrong with the proof in front of you, as well as the fact you've failed to retort with factual evidence counting to your opinion and using subjective and ambiguous quotes instead, I believe you're only being stubborn and thus not worth my time, or too lazy to engage in a real debate about Brawl. >_>

    The Vermilion City Guru
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  10. #69
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    Meta knight is not broken. Hes a fast character with good priority and a decent combo game. Because of his speed he has very little room for characters to punish him. On the other hand, he can be vertically killed at around without much trouble by most characters. Bombs and other explosive projectiles cut through his "all powerful" spam b moves, and the only way to achieve effective kills with him is to mindgame people into being edgeguarded and edgehogged. His D smash can only kill if you save it, his b up can be easily dodged as kill moves go, his f smash has a ton of startup lag and he even makes a noise to tell you its coming. He has 0 projectiles. Depending on his position from the stage, his b up has very little vertical recovery if he runs out of jumps due to good projectiles, and his b side can be easily edgehogged.

    Beside this, he has a horrible, terrible weakness against:
    Ssbb meta knight-invalid.jpg
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  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by WiiAssasin View Post
    Meta knight is not broken. Hes a fast character with good priority and a decent combo game. Because of his speed he has very little room for characters to punish him. On the other hand, he can be vertically killed at around without much trouble by most characters. Bombs and other explosive projectiles cut through his "all powerful" spam b moves, and the only way to achieve effective kills with him is to mindgame people into being edgeguarded and edgehogged. His D smash can only kill if you save it, his b up can be easily dodged as kill moves go, his f smash has a ton of startup lag and he even makes a noise to tell you its coming. He has 0 projectiles. Depending on his position from the stage, his b up has very little vertical recovery if he runs out of jumps due to good projectiles, and his b side can be easily edgehogged.

    Beside this, he has a horrible, terrible weakness against:
    Attachment 9201
    'Bout time. =D

    I mentioned this before, but I'll bring it up again; Meta is light, but is not too light that it really impacts his character. Through MC (momentum canceling) and DI, he can easily survive. Since Meta isn't going to be gimped any time soon, he has very good survivability, the only light character with better survival probability at high % probably being G&W and his absurd MC capabilities of the bucket (Down-B).

    Actually, very few projectiles out-prioritize Meta's Mach Tornado. The most notable of which do would be Snake's grenade, which can be dashed through or also damage Snake as close range, and Falco's lasers. Meta is small and can glide and obviously dodge, so Falco's lasers do nothing more than prevent a high amount of Mach Tornado usage. Some lower tier characters can stop the tornado with projectiles and cancel it out, and even fewer can pierce it, but their match-ups are so terrible otherwise conclude that Meta has no problem not having a projectile, since he can dodge or power through every single camp-game in Brawl, except Falco's lasers. That's one of the major reasons Falco's match-up is neutral, since his defensive game is at least plausible to work against Meta.

    When you have Mach Whorenado off the top cheap kills, the ultimate tools in gimping (F-air, D-air, N-air, and Up-B), and a move that can get 26% damage all the while avoiding the stale move penalty (again, Whorenado), Meta has no problems snagging a KO by gimp, off the top by juggling (Snake in particular needs to worry about this) or by racking up damage plain and simple and sending them off the side. An opponent being heavier than him literally means they're easier to combo/gimp and kill. Light or even lighter opponents don't have the insane approach or combo options Meta abuses (except for Diddy, hence why they have an even match-up; Diddy's 99% screwed if Meta gets him off-stage good though).

    Up B has great vertical recovery, actually. Abusing glide mechanics on top of his 6 aerial jumps and first glide means there's no position on any stage he can't recover from vertically. Side B and the Whorenado also give him horizontal recovery means if Meta doesn't want to glide/Up B glide, and literally has the best horizontal recovery in the game. You're not gimping Meta unless you spike 'em, and with all those jumps and moves as options to get back on stage, Falco's D-air is the only reasonable meteor smash from a top tier. And taking Falco offstage for a gimp against Meta is terribly risky since he has one of the most gimpable recovery in the game; only Link and Ganon are notably worse, really. And that's saying something.

    I feel you're emphasizing running out of jumps... Considering he has more recovery options, jumps, and vertical/horizontal distance available to him than any other character except Pit (who's recovery is impressive on only distance, not practicality and lack of risk), that doesn't happen unless an idiot is playing Meta. Keep the talk about the pros, since the metagame and competitive character talk only applies to pros.

    The Vermilion City Guru
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