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  1. #101
    Novocain Stain'd ssbb_lover's Avatar
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    [CounterArgument=ssbb_lover]

    Quote Originally Posted by Canvas
    first, Christianity is a cult for it follows and praises one individual who claimed to be part of a religion (Judaism), yet promoted different values and ideas. By modern day definition, a cult can reach the level of religion when enough people support it. Just look at Scientology.
    Where does it say he was a part of Judaism? Christianity is not a cult. >_<
    second, by labeling yourself as Christian, you lump yourself with the extreme fundies shown in the article. Do what Christianity's history has always done, start a new sect when you don't agree with the previous one. That is the biggest problem with Christianity is the simple fact that it has changed so much since its foundation that no original copy exists anymore.
    No, actually, by calling myself a Christian i'm saying that I believe everything in the Bible, I try to follow the Ten Commandments, I pray and worship the One and Holy God, among other things. What do you mean by starting a new sect and agreeing with previous one? Examples? Don't state a fact until you have an example to be ready at your disposal.
    third, the term "Christian" was created as an insult to the people who followed Christ and litterly means "Jesus Freak." The romans saw this group of people praising this man, in the same sense that cult followers praise their cult leaders, and inevitably eliminated the leader. Romans saw Jesus in the same sense of how the American public looked at Charles Manson in the 60s or David Koresh in the early 90s.
    I've never heard of that explanation of the origin for the word "Christian". I could've sworn that it was derived from "Christ"... Yes, that's exactly what Romans thought...then again, they were a pagan society against every religion.
    fourth, yes irresponsible sex is not a game, yet when birth control is added to the equation, it is a fun, loving act of passion (or just fun too). The reason Christianity only supported sex within marriage was because it was a form of social control.
    I agree, sex isn't a game. I don't agree that when you use birth control it can be "fun". And you have no clue what you're talking about when you say that "Christianity only supported sex within marriage was because it was a form of social control." They actually supported sex within marriage because it CAN be the most holy, most satisfying thing on earth. In fact, the closest thing to Heaven. Also, because God says it in the Bible. What the hell do you mean by "form of social control"? That doesn't even make sense.
    Children are incredibly vulnerable to such fantastic ideas such as God, in the same way children love unicorns, fairies and a giant red dog named Clifford. Tell a child anything and they'll believe it. One of the first lessons of adulthood is to never believe everything you are told, yet many people are unfortunate to learn that vital step.
    No, it's not the same. There isn't a religion called "Unicornism" or "Cliffordism", the ideas of these objects weren't created since the beginning of time, and since you don't believe in Creation, since around 5,000 years ago. Christianity is in a totally different category. You may be a "I can't see it, so I won't believe it" person, which is why you're an atheist, you need the facts; but, Christianity makes since, it fits in with the current problems of the world no matter what the date of the world is. It's always relevant.

    [/CounterArgument]

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  2. #102
    WiiChat Member Canvas's Avatar
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    Where does it say he was a part of Judaism? Christianity is not a cult. >_<

    Jesus was a jew, come on that's a given. Christianity as a religion/cult didn't exist the moment of his birth.

    No, actually, by calling myself a Christian i'm saying that I believe everything in the Bible, I try to follow the Ten Commandments, I pray and worship the One and Holy God, among other things. What do you mean by starting a new sect and agreeing with previous one? Examples? Don't state a fact until you have an example to be ready at your disposal.

    Lets see, we have the Church of England, Episcopalian, Baptism, Catholism, Islam, and many more.

    I've never heard of that explanation of the origin for the word "Christian". I could've sworn that it was derived from "Christ"... Yes, that's exactly what Romans thought...then again, they were a pagan society against every religion.

    of course its derived from the word Christ, thats what I said. the term Christ Freak is a rough translation, but pretty accurate. Keep in mind, other than the religious backdrop that our recent religious presidents have placed, we mimic the roman society more than any other. In many ways, America is the new Rome.

    I agree, sex isn't a game. I don't agree that when you use birth control it can be "fun". And you have no clue what you're talking about when you say that "Christianity only supported sex within marriage was because it was a form of social control." They actually supported sex within marriage because it CAN be the most holy, most satisfying thing on earth. In fact, the closest thing to Heaven. Also, because God says it in the Bible. What the hell do you mean by "form of social control"? That doesn't even make sense.

    Oh it makes perfect sense. The roman counterpart to the christian marriage was single, often bisexual, ways of the population. The idea of social control is simple. If you make both parents believe in Christianity, then all their offspring are forced to lead the ways of the christian mindset creating later generations to have the same mindset as the parents. Christianity was the ultimate deviation in roman times, yet soon became the primary religion because of this social control. In many ways it was genius. By calling most of the natural attractions of humanity "sins," Christianity was able to form strict rules and regulations to the populous because of this newly installed idea that what they were doing was "wrong." Remember, what the creators of Christianity wanted was the make the world believe in what they thought was right. Also, people of the time of Christ were incredibly gullible and were known for doing some very irrational things.

    No, it's not the same. There isn't a religion called "Unicornism" or "Cliffordism", the ideas of these objects weren't created since the beginning of time, and since you don't believe in Creation, since around 5,000 years ago. Christianity is in a totally different category. You may be a "I can't see it, so I won't believe it" person, which is why you're an atheist, you need the facts; but, Christianity makes since, it fits in with the current problems of the world no matter what the date of the world is. It's always relevant.

    Infact, there is a religion called Unicornism, but that's irrelevant. You aren't allowing yourself to see the big picture and what you said makes little to no sense. From my understanding, are you saying that the idea of God was created at the creation of everything? If so, that is dead wrong. The idea of God was the imagination of man to fill in the gaps of understanding the inner workings of our universe. When someone couldn't explain something, it was God's doing. That is where the idea of God was born. Just because you are affiliated with it doesn't disassociate it from other imaginary ideas.

    Christianity is "always relevant" because of how vague it is, and everything that is obvious has either been taken out or edited to fit the time. The only reason its relevant is because it is made to be relevant. One of the earliest versions of the bible has a section where Jesus is said to have relations with a young boy, but that was edited out around 300 AC.

    I became an atheist not for that lame quote you stated. I believe that there is air, and gravity but I don't see it. I believe in science over all, that is all.

  3. #103
    WiiChat Member Canvas's Avatar
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    Hey man, I just realized you are only 14, so I applauded you for being critical and willing to stand up for yourself.

  4. #104
    Del fuego he resurgido... Axtlar's Avatar
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  5. #105
    Novocain Stain'd ssbb_lover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canvas
    Where does it say he was a part of Judaism? Christianity is not a cult. >_<

    Jesus was a jew, come on that's a given. Christianity as a religion/cult didn't exist the moment of his birth.

    No, actually, by calling myself a Christian i'm saying that I believe everything in the Bible, I try to follow the Ten Commandments, I pray and worship the One and Holy God, among other things. What do you mean by starting a new sect and agreeing with previous one? Examples? Don't state a fact until you have an example to be ready at your disposal.

    Lets see, we have the Church of England, Episcopalian, Baptism, Catholism, Islam, and many more.

    I've never heard of that explanation of the origin for the word "Christian". I could've sworn that it was derived from "Christ"... Yes, that's exactly what Romans thought...then again, they were a pagan society against every religion.

    of course its derived from the word Christ, thats what I said. the term Christ Freak is a rough translation, but pretty accurate. Keep in mind, other than the religious backdrop that our recent religious presidents have placed, we mimic the roman society more than any other. In many ways, America is the new Rome.

    I agree, sex isn't a game. I don't agree that when you use birth control it can be "fun". And you have no clue what you're talking about when you say that "Christianity only supported sex within marriage was because it was a form of social control." They actually supported sex within marriage because it CAN be the most holy, most satisfying thing on earth. In fact, the closest thing to Heaven. Also, because God says it in the Bible. What the hell do you mean by "form of social control"? That doesn't even make sense.

    Oh it makes perfect sense. The roman counterpart to the christian marriage was single, often bisexual, ways of the population. The idea of social control is simple. If you make both parents believe in Christianity, then all their offspring are forced to lead the ways of the christian mindset creating later generations to have the same mindset as the parents. Christianity was the ultimate deviation in roman times, yet soon became the primary religion because of this social control. In many ways it was genius. By calling most of the natural attractions of humanity "sins," Christianity was able to form strict rules and regulations to the populous because of this newly installed idea that what they were doing was "wrong." Remember, what the creators of Christianity wanted was the make the world believe in what they thought was right. Also, people of the time of Christ were incredibly gullible and were known for doing some very irrational things.

    No, it's not the same. There isn't a religion called "Unicornism" or "Cliffordism", the ideas of these objects weren't created since the beginning of time, and since you don't believe in Creation, since around 5,000 years ago. Christianity is in a totally different category. You may be a "I can't see it, so I won't believe it" person, which is why you're an atheist, you need the facts; but, Christianity makes since, it fits in with the current problems of the world no matter what the date of the world is. It's always relevant.

    Infact, there is a religion called Unicornism, but that's irrelevant. You aren't allowing yourself to see the big picture and what you said makes little to no sense. From my understanding, are you saying that the idea of God was created at the creation of everything? If so, that is dead wrong. The idea of God was the imagination of man to fill in the gaps of understanding the inner workings of our universe. When someone couldn't explain something, it was God's doing. That is where the idea of God was born. Just because you are affiliated with it doesn't disassociate it from other imaginary ideas.

    Christianity is "always relevant" because of how vague it is, and everything that is obvious has either been taken out or edited to fit the time. The only reason its relevant is because it is made to be relevant. One of the earliest versions of the bible has a section where Jesus is said to have relations with a young boy, but that was edited out around 300 AC.

    I became an atheist not for that lame quote you stated. I believe that there is air, and gravity but I don't see it. I believe in science over all, that is all.
    I respect that post, you weren't stupid or ignorant throughout the whole thing. Before I break it down, I just wanna say that in my previous post that you quoted (as well as this next post), I wasn't stating any of that in an, "I know this for a matter of fact, duh I know everything" kind of way. I know I have a lot to learn, and I like debating things like this.

    Jesus was a jew, come on that's a given. Christianity as a religion/cult didn't exist the moment of his birth.
    Yes, he was a Jew. It doesn't mean he believed in Judaism. Just like the Germans thought the Jews were an inferior race, lo and behold he Holocaust. Just because they were born a Jew in a Culture of a white, different language race doesn't make them inferior.
    Lets see, we have the Church of England, Episcopalian, Baptism, Catholism, Islam, and many more.
    That was my bad there, I just wasn't making sense of what you had meant by 'sects' (yes I know what the word means ) at the time. But all of that happened indirectly of the faith that Jesus begun. Each of those sects took a little bit of what Jesus spoke as truth, then made their own junk.
    of course its derived from the word Christ, thats what I said. the term Christ Freak is a rough translation, but pretty accurate. Keep in mind, other than the religious backdrop that our recent religious presidents have placed, we mimic the roman society more than any other. In many ways, America is the new Rome.
    I agree, America has taken our governmental structure (and I know many other things) from Rome. Hell, our whole language is derived from Latin, the language of the Romans. The only difference is, America was founded on a Christian basis, where as Rome was founded on a pagan one. Now look at the difference between the two, America is now the most strong military force in the world, the most free country, etc.; Rome is where you visit as an ancient landsite, because it fell into ruin.

    Just to go a little off topic of what we're talking about, America was built up, won crucial wars (against practically all odds) when America was built around the faith of Christianity. Now our society (IMO) is falling apart, and guess what, Christianity is rapidly declining while religions such as Wikka (witchcraft) are the fastest growing in the country.

    (I still don't agree with the "Christ FREAK" thing...sounds a bit too rough a translation for me.
    Oh it makes perfect sense. The roman counterpart to the christian marriage was single, often bisexual, ways of the population. The idea of social control is simple. If you make both parents believe in Christianity, then all their offspring are forced to lead the ways of the christian mindset creating later generations to have the same mindset as the parents. Christianity was the ultimate deviation in roman times, yet soon became the primary religion because of this social control. In many ways it was genius. By calling most of the natural attractions of humanity "sins," Christianity was able to form strict rules and regulations to the populous because of this newly installed idea that what they were doing was "wrong." Remember, what the creators of Christianity wanted was the make the world believe in what they thought was right. Also, people of the time of Christ were incredibly gullible and were known for doing some very irrational things.
    I don't know how you can treat Christianity and Roman culture as-one and-one (Romans fed Christians to the lions, men, women and children alike). Like I've said; Rome = pagan basis. I get what you mean now, how Christianity could be seen as a means of control, but it's not. It's just...not. Christianity was founded at the beginning of forever, since eternity. It has, it is, it will be. Jesus says, "I am." Forever past, present and future. This religion was not created to control society. Again, an example of something irrational?
    Infact, there is a religion called Unicornism, but that's irrelevant. You aren't allowing yourself to see the big picture and what you said makes little to no sense. From my understanding, are you saying that the idea of God was created at the creation of everything? If so, that is dead wrong. The idea of God was the imagination of man to fill in the gaps of understanding the inner workings of our universe. When someone couldn't explain something, it was God's doing. That is where the idea of God was born. Just because you are affiliated with it doesn't disassociate it from other imaginary ideas.

    Christianity is "always relevant" because of how vague it is, and everything that is obvious has either been taken out or edited to fit the time. The only reason its relevant is because it is made to be relevant. One of the earliest versions of the bible has a section where Jesus is said to have relations with a young boy, but that was edited out around 300 AC.
    I want dissect this more than I am! I have to go to bed though...

    I already stated what I believe Christianity is and its origins.

    When someone couldn't figure something out, couldn't explain something etc. and claimed it was a god...that'd be the Greeks. Not the true Christians, just like current times, their were those who claimed they were Christian but weren't.
    I became an atheist not for that lame quote you stated. I believe that there is air, and gravity but I don't see it. I believe in science over all, that is all.
    No, but you do feel and experience it which is practically the same thing.

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  6. #106
    Semper Ubi Sub Ubi tank's Avatar
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  7. #107
    WiiChat Member Canvas's Avatar
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    First, I am not being abusive to him, I am speaking to him at an adult level. I shouldn't have to dumb down my talk because you believe he isn't able to "take it."

    Anyway

    America was NOT founded on a christian basis. Thomas Jefferson was a huge deist and hated every aspect of religion and christianity, along with Ben Franklin. Read http://nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm They would be disgusted with how this country is run now.

    America is also not the most free country in the world. Real freedom would understand that laws shouldn't be made based on opinion; laws should only exist to protect the rights of individuals and thats about it.

    Jesus believed in the same God Judaism believes in, aka the Abrahamic God

    I have to repeat that Christianity did not begin at the beginning of time or whatever. In Christian belief, yes you believe that the God created the earth in 7 days and all that mumbojumbo, but do you really believe that the existence of everything in the unimaginably huge universe began 5,000 years ago when we have evidence that blows that out of the water? It takes millions of light years for the stars above us to show their light; we even found alien life on mars. I highly suggest you read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. I know the title sounds very blasphemous to read, but in order to fully believe in something you must challenge it. Trust me on this one, I am not trying to make you an atheist, just to get some facts straight thats all.

    Whenever you have freetime, feel free to message me on AIM @ benvandenbroeck. We can talk about these things for hours. I actually do one on one classes with younger kids interested in science, and the laws of the universe. I bet the wii forum kids are sick of reading all this critical thinking when all they wanna do is talk and gossip about nintendo lol.
    Last edited by Canvas; 03-08-2007 at 11:08 PM.

  8. #108
    Novocain Stain'd ssbb_lover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canvas
    First, I am not being abusive to him, I am speaking to him at an adult level. I shouldn't have to dumb down my talk because you believe he isn't able to "take it."
    Thank you very much, I appreciate it. My teacher says that exact same sentence...what's your name?
    [/QUOTE]America was NOT founded on a christian basis. Thomas Jefferson was a huge deist and hated every aspect of religion and christianity, along with Ben Franklin. Read http://nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm They would be disgusted with how this country is run now.[/QUOTE]
    I totally agree with that, other men that were prominent in America also were not Christians. Then again, they weren't the people who founded our country. To be literal, Columbus actually founded the land, but he wasn't the founder of America (as you obviously know). But, men, women and children like the Pilgrims, etc. were the founders, and they were all Protestant and Presbyterian. New England (of the time of the Pilgrims/Quakers) was practically the new Geneva. It was the ideal, Christian society (not to mention, both of them were some of the most politically and humanely sound societies ever known).
    America is also not the most free country in the world. Real freedom would understand that laws shouldn't be made based on opinion; laws should only exist to protect the rights of individuals and thats about it.
    I agree with you. Laws shouldn't be made based on opinions, but sometimes it's a must, there's no other way. Take abortion, some people think it's right, some think it's wrong. Opinions shouldn't rule everything else out, but in certain cases, I think it has to be like that. If you want to get down to the nitty-gritty, embrioes (sp?) inside the womb DO have functional brain waves (as recent studies show). America is one of the most blood bathed nations in the history of the world because of abortion (of course, everyone has their opinions on this topic, don't they?).
    [QUOTE]Jesus believed in the same God Judaism believes in, aka the Abrahamic God[/QUOTE
    So does Roman Catholicism, doesn't mean I agree with the religion. Purgatory, I believe, is just an idea thought up by the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) so they could sell ??? which equaled big money. What better way to make money, then to tell people of they didn't get a ??? they and their loves ones would suffer going through the levels of the seven worst sins till they got to heaven, or had a chance to slip into hell.
    I have to repeat that Christianity did not begin at the beginning of time or whatever. In Christian belief, yes you believe that the God created the earth in 7 days and all that mumbojumbo, but do you really believe that the existence of everything in the unimaginably huge universe began 5,000 years ago when we have evidence that blows that out of the water? It takes millions of light years for the stars above us to show their light; we even found alien life on mars. I highly suggest you read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. I know the title sounds very blasphemous to read, but in order to fully believe in something you must challenge it. Trust me on this one, I am not trying to make you an atheist, just to get some facts straight thats all.
    The part I bolded I especially liked, you're not trying to pressure me, just trying to give an example to better learn myself where you're coming from (if I haven't already made it clear, I appreciate the way you don't just say things blatantly).

    However, I don't believe that the universe etc was created 5,000 years ago. That was the time of Abraham. What about the dinosaurs, Adam & Eve? (I know you've already thought of those things, i'm just kind of questioning myself...) I favor a time closer to 10,000+ years (by '+' I don't mean an estimate from 10,000 to 100,000,000,000,000; just a little more than 10,000 such as 15,000 or so.
    Whenever you have freetime, feel free to message me on AIM @ benvandenbroeck. We can talk about these things for hours. I actually do one on one classes with younger kids interested in science, and the laws of the universe. I bet the wii forum kids are sick of reading all this critical thinking when all they wanna do is talk and gossip about nintendo lol.
    Definitely, I enjoy talking about these types of things as well as talking to you.

    Screw forum kids, they need to learn about these things sooner or later in life.

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  9. #109
    WiiChat Member Canvas's Avatar
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    My name is Ben Van Den Broeck, I live in LA but grew up in Lexington, KY (hence my relation with a religious backdrop). see you on AIM.

    And on one note, the people who founded the country United States of America was Jefferson and the constitution crew we all know of. The immigrants who occupied the country beforehand don't really count because they were just under control from the Brits and really thats the beginning of western civilization, not America.
    Last edited by Canvas; 03-09-2007 at 04:11 PM.

  10. #110
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    Whoa, I missed a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canvas
    ahem. (I haven't read any replies before my previous post so if some of this has been said, please excuse it.)

    yes I am an atheist, but that has nothing to do with the comment I left.

    Lets put things into perspective. Along with the ridiculous disgust of our own bodies within our society, Christianity (hypocritical to their own book of belief) pushes the idea that our bodies and the act of sex are immoral unless done in the prescribed way (in bed, vaginal only and please, nothing kinky).
    Man, you got it all wrong. I agree that Christianity has more hypocrites than other religions, but don't discount all of the others. I am pissed at these people in the article just as much as you are. Reminds me of those people who picketed the Amish family's children's funerals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canvas

    This issue is about children right? I understand the concern of young children getting a hold of pornography would be a problem for its unrealism (even surrealism), but understand that the people who support this cause play the "ban, not educate" card. When your children are searching for porn, that means that they are curious to understand this secret act that they are unaware of. It is important to note that if your kid must turn to his wii to learn about sex through porn (as incorrect as that may be), I call the blame on the close minded parents. Not only is there obvious notice that internet is available on this system, but that there is parental controls as well. Also, a local internet connection is necessary in order to get on to the internet.

    Now, if the child is looking for pornography after he has gained knowledge of what sex really is, that just means he's a completely normal, healthy kid. I'd much rather know that my child first learned about sex from me rather than the often sexist, abusive and bizarre nature of pornography. (OH, and this applies to female children too!)

    I don't feel like getting into the topic of Christianity in general, please read my book for everything you as a human being need to know about the American cult called Christianity: Mary: The Mother Of Modern Day Psychosis.
    Um.... I agree with everything except for it being ok *after* you know about it. Doesn't quite make sense. "hey, now that you know you'll get lung cancer from smoking, here's some ciggys."?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canvas
    second, by labeling yourself as Christian, you lump yourself with the extreme fundies shown in the article. Do what Christianity's history has always done, start a new sect when you don't agree with the previous one. That is the biggest problem with Christianity is the simple fact that it has changed so much since its foundation that no original copy exists anymore.
    Why would *we* have to start a new DENOMINATION? It is they in the article that are shunned from the community. The denoms are different in little things mostly. Songs you sing, if you're allowed to watch secular (I really hate that word) movies/songs. Stuff like that. They all agree (except for Catholicism maybe) in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canvas
    fourth, yes irresponsible sex is not a game, yet when birth control is added to the equation, it is a fun, loving act of passion (or just fun too). The reason Christianity only supported sex within marriage was because it was a form of social control. Children are incredibly vulnerable to such fantastic ideas such as God, in the same way children love unicorns, fairies and a giant red dog named Clifford. Tell a child anything and they'll believe it. One of the first lessons of adulthood is to never believe everything you are told, yet many people are unfortunate to learn that vital step.
    Everything about Christianity can be looked at two different ways. First, it is man made and is a guideline for "social control". That is what you, squall, and others believe. It also can be the word of God telling us how to live and since he is good, it seems like a social control. Sorry if you can't see an argument in there...

    Sex is a loving, fun act of passion, to your spouse. Why should sex not have any ramifications? If I go drink a lot and get addicted, it is my fault and I am looked down on. When I go have sex and get somebody pregnant, it is more socially acceptable and you can just have and abortion...Makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canvas
    Lets see, we have the Church of England, Episcopalian, Baptism, Catholism, Islam, and many more.
    Um, if you were a Christian before, how do you think that Islam is Christianity. It is Baptist, and Catholicism.

    Also, ssbb_lover Jesus was a Jew and followed it well. Doncha remember he taught in the temple at age 12? If he didn't believe in it, his quotes of scripture would have no meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canvas
    Christianity is "always relevant" because of how vague it is, and everything that is obvious has either been taken out or edited to fit the time. The only reason its relevant is because it is made to be relevant. One of the earliest versions of the bible has a section where Jesus is said to have relations with a young boy, but that was edited out around 300 AC.
    Christianity isn't vague. It has always stated the laws. You keep saying that the laws are after the Romans. Most of the Bible was completed before then. The stuff written during their occupation isn't law at all. Please say where you got that from. Besides, it's AD. You seem very uneducated to me for writing a book on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canvas
    I have to repeat that Christianity did not begin at the beginning of time or whatever. In Christian belief, yes you believe that the God created the earth in 7 days and all that mumbojumbo, but do you really believe that the existence of everything in the unimaginably huge universe began 5,000 years ago when we have evidence that blows that out of the water? It takes millions of light years for the stars above us to show their light; we even found alien life on mars. I highly suggest you read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. I know the title sounds very blasphemous to read, but in order to fully believe in something you must challenge it. Trust me on this one, I am not trying to make you an atheist, just to get some facts straight thats all.
    Even discounting Creation, we can still go back to Abraham. Anyways, I believe in a 7 Billion year earth and I also believe that it doesn't go against my religion. I'll have to check out that book so I can take quotes out of context, just like the pro atheists do!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Canvas
    My name is Ben Van Den Broeck, I live in LA but grew up in Lexington, KY (hence my relation with a religious backdrop). see you on AIM.
    Hey, you dutch? Also, what about being in Kentucky has to do with religion? Theres a lot of Catholic Mexicans in LA too. What does the place have to do with it?

    Edit: I forgot the

    /rant
    Last edited by Brawny; 03-10-2007 at 07:18 PM.

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