Is jesus God or God's creation

Lastwords?

It almost makes complete sense!

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LevesqueIsKing

I always hated this when I was religiously active. I would fear that someone would ask me the simplest of questions—who is Jesus?—and that I wouldn't be able to answer them. I think it's pretty stupid that he's considered both God and God's son.

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Squall7

Yes, because the best place for religious clarity is a computer games forum..[/sarcasm]

Religion is a subject that is hotly debated here, and as with the nature of religion, people will continue to argue over every little bit of it.

Most people, especially online, will not actually learn from it and change their opinions, but in the end just get sick of debating it.


Too many people want to talk, and too few want to listen. (although I've already made my mind up, and listen to science on this topic).

What people don't remember is that, whatever the outcome of the debate, it doesn't change the truth. Whether I say I'm atheist or not doesn't have the slightest influence on whether or not there truly is a supreme being or not. In the end, if you cannot answer a question, allow it to be unanswered (or at least make clear that what you're answering with is a guess), rather than providing a BS answer in which the person will poke holes in it, and essentially think the whole thing is wrong.

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Veronica

Yeah i basically agree with you.

pYRo

Jesus being both God and God's son makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Jesus is the son of God. Jesus is the father of our bodies, while God is the father of our spirits. There is also another being called the Holy Ghost. But they are all separate.

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Veronica

What's the Holy spirit/Holy Ghost?

rukus

i understand your meaning, bt have another thought. Modern science doesnt speak of a 'greater plan', so the analogy of the tapestry doesnt work for science. However, the ball of yarn theory teaches chaos, which is contraindictive to Christianity, and therefore doesnt work. But science as a ball of yarn, and Christianity of a tapestry does, no?



most others:


since when has a bunch of non-believers/agnostics/atheists become experts on one of the most confusing (for our finite minds) topics of religion (Christianity)? was it the same time a ditch digger became an expert surgeon?


don't tell someone what you do not know, and explaining what you think it is is misleading, and makes you look ignorant, not smart. A better answer than to come up with some sort of crap is to acknowledge you don't know or understand.

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rukus

so if you already think the bible is flawed, then the questions you're asking are only answered from the bible, then you areither trolling, or you really don't care.
if you really want the answer, then go read for yourself what the bible has to say about the topics. if you want somewhere to start, pm me.
otherwise ignore what people think might be the answer

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Veronica

Okay first of all i said i basically agree with him i never said i fully agreed with him. And the reason why i posted this is because i want other peoples option or view on the subject. You don't have to get so technical about everything.

Napalmbrain 

I just remembered something. When I was younger, I once heard the trinity described to me as sort of like water - it's one substance, but comes in three forms (water comes in other states as well, but let's not get nitpicky), namely solid (ice), liquid, gas (steam). I suppose it could be a decent analogy, although I still don't entirely get it.

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Bio

Yeah, this was my reaction to his post as well, but did not know how to explain it.

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Gikoku Harakami

I'm more likely to believe the bold, but when I was a Christian I was taught that Jesus was the son of God. Then it started getting confusing when people began praying to Jesus and calling him the lord.

The bible on many occasions, says that Jesus is the son of God.

1 Timothy 2:5 - "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

Hard for me to fathom how one can be both God & The Mediator at the same time, not to mention it is said that Jesus also prayed to God (Why would you pray to yourself?). In the Christian religion, Jesus is referred to as the son of God, the savior/messiah. Over 40 times the phrase for Jesus Son of God appears in the New Testament. It gets confusing though when one sees other Christians believing Jesus is God and acknowledging him as such rather than the former.

However, it's also possible that Son of God does not literally mean the offspring of God.

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Brawny

Yay.

The Trinity is one of those things. The book I'm currently reading says it's students learning about subatomic particles: if you think you understand it, you don't.

It's such a strange concept, which, for me, at least, tells me it's true. If the religion was made up by humans, why would they invent a concept so complex for even themselves to understand?

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rukus

ive never thought of that before.

asking a secular peoples opinion of something religious is counterproductive. why are people continuing to say what they think, instead of what the Bible teaches? We have a finite mind, God has an infinite mind, do not think he has the same limited knowledge that we do. Sometimes there are things we cannot fathom.

the 3 state (liquid, gas, solid) is more of the right idea IMO (remember, im human).

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Napalmbrain 

You think it must be true because you can't understand it? I would consider that a very bad reason to believe in something...

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Brawny

The Trinity isn't understood by anyone on this earth. If someone says they do, you know not to follow them.

I've also heard it described as how a single clover has 3 leaves, but this description doesn't have enough "oneness" in it. Another I've heard is a person, you can be an uncle, a grandfather, a son, a husband, but you're still the same person acting in different roles, and even having different personalities. You may say a randy joke to your grandkids that you probably wouldn't tell your wife.

I'd think this is the closest analogy we can have, and thus that's the one that's used the most often, calling them Father and Son.

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rukus

i would completely agree with you there.

But that analogy CAN NOT apply to the trinity.
The Father, Son, & Holy Spirit are all perfect and all-knowing. They have the same agenda, goals, and reasons. The may have different roles, and different personalities, but they would not be different depending on who they are working with



You aren't alone, and its not limited to religious persons.

Many times i have questioned people yelling "I hate Bush!!". When asked why they hate bush, they spew the same crap all the time. He kills children, war for oil, hes stupid. Completely ignorant answers. Many people have no idea why they believe what they believe, whether its religion, politics, science, evolution, or anything.

Go ask an average person, who claims to believe in evolution, what the core theories of evolution are. Ypou will most likely recieve a blank stare.
Point is, if you choose to believe in something (anything) know your reasons why, and know them well. If its a topic that can be hotly debated, know the counter arguments agsinst your belief as well. You will learn a lot.

To quote myself, "I have learned the most from people who know nothing."

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Squall7

Well, it kinda does, just not in a narrative-like way. It brings together different aspects of the subject as a whole (biology, physics and chemistry, along with the many branching off areas of those). They're all linked, just not in an a to b to c way.

That's assuming that Christianity is not contradictive in itself. Take for example, the verses in Leviticus against the spirit of the Bible, which is meant to be at least about tolerance and peace. Likewise, would a ball of yarn necessarily mean chaos? Surely it could mean intricacy.

Just because we don't believe it, doesn't mean we're unaware of it. The ditch digger and expert surgeon analogy is flawed. It's based on capability rather than belief. Besides, what about the people who argue against evolution, despite not understanding it properly? At least with religion, different interpretations are pretty much the standard. While there is debate in the scientific field, it's more debating theories than debating interpretations.

Knowledge is a bad way to explain. Intelligence on the other hand (the ability to use knowledge to gain more knowledge) is a better way to explain.

Besides, when it's extremely interpretive (i.e. based on interpretation), "knowing" per se is simply having a favoured way of understanding something. I'm sure somebody with just as much experience in the religion as yourself may have a completely different interpretation to it, a completely different favoured way of understanding it.

Making me look "ignorant", well that's up to the person reading it. I'm sure I may look "ignorant" to somebody who thinks I'm understating something, or simply not interpreting something as they would, but essentially whether you or anyone else thinks I'm ignorant is ultimately moot. If this makes sense to someone, surely it is a good thing?! If it enhances understanding, whether it's within the original point or about the original point, it is valuable.

Perhaps it's my writing style, perhaps you just don't like what I'm saying. Regardless, if what I'm saying is false, it's not up to you to disprove or disapprove of it, it's down to the reader's themselves. If what I'm saying is true (which obviously, I consider to be the case), then your comments will seem, once again moot.

P.S. I realise your comments were about atheists/agnostics on this forum in general, but since I am one, I've decided to do a personal response.

EDIT: Looks like the religious debate is heating up with the bible as the source. I'm outta here.

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Brawny

Of course every analogy breaks down at some point. That one focuses on the separateness too much, I think.

What exactly are you denominationally?

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Skippy

"Lord" is a just a title - it can be applied to anyone in a position of authority or a leader. It doesn't refer specifically to God or Jesus.

What confuses matters more, is the way the word "Lord" is used in most Bible translations. In the Old Testament, God's name is represented by 4 Hebrew letters (the tetragrammaton) that, in English, are usually translated as Jehovah or Yahweh. However most Bible translations have removed God's name from the Bible (found in hundreds of places in the original Hebrew) and replaced it with "Lord" - oftentime in an all caps form. These Bibles typically admit doing this on purpose in the notes at the beginning. The one place you're still most likely to find God's name is Psalm 83:18, although some translations removed it from there too.

Now in the New Testament, Jesus is often referred to as "Lord", since it's still a fitting title. But many of the apostles and disciples in the New Testament quoted verses from the Old Testament, ones that used God's actual name, but again the Bibles used "Lord" instead of God's name. Now that just causes confusion since it makes it sound like they are referring to Jesus instead of God.

Here's a specific example (from the NIV translation)
Romans 10:11-13
As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

That gives the impression that you need to call on Jesus to be saved. However, Paul there points out he is quoting from the scriptures, which in this case is Joel 2:32 which says:
Joel 2:32
And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved;

Now this is one of those cases where the "LORD" in Joel 2:32 is a stand-in for the the tetragrammaton representing God's name.
So what Paul is emphasizing there in Romans, is to call on the name of Jehovah/Yahweh, not Jesus.

There are many other cases like this where the distinction between God and Jesus has been blurred by improper translation.

As for praying, Jesus gave instructions regarding prayer and it was to God, not to anyone else. Also, God is the only one referred to as the hearer or prayers, not Jesus, holy spirit, saints, beads, statues, or anyone else. However, we are to pray in Jesus' name - indicating our acceptance of his sacrifice to save us from sin and his position as mediator between us and God.


Then accept what the Bible says - Jesus is the only begotten of God, the firstborn of creation (not always existing like God is).




The scriptures were written down for our benefit - so that we can know God, know his son, and learn salvation. Why would God, who wants us all to live, present a concept that we are not capable of understanding - and with something so vitally important - who he is and who his son is and their respective roles.





They are not all knowing - only God is all knowing.

Jesus's own words here at Mark 13:32
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

John 14:28
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."


This much I will agree on - they are united in purpose. Jesus said many times that he only does the will of his father, not his own.