Is jesus God or God's creation

Brawny

The word is Jesus. It clearly says the word is God. And that he was with him in the beginning, which is before creation following the lead of Genesis. I don't know how else you could interpret that.

Also, Jesus is equally all-knowing and ever-present as a spirit. It's only when he was incarnated that he was restricted in both knowledge, and in omnipresence.

__________________

Skippy

The original Koine Greek text that John 1:1 is translated from is not really so clear cut. And obviously this debate has been going on for nearly 2000 years now. But the Greek translation could also be rendered as "divine", "godlike", or "a god", and several Bible translations use that text instead.
And to translate that one verse to say they are in fact the same directly contradicts the many many other verses where they are distinctly different beings and requires inventions of concepts like God-the-Father and God-the-Son and then bending everything to fit that (which then causes confusion as we've seen right in this thread - the trinity concept is hard to grasp because the Bible doesn't support it).


I don't disagree with that. Jesus existed long before the creation of the earth - the creation in Gensis. He was referred to as God's master worker in the act of creation even. However, Jesus was also referred to as the firstborn of ALL creation (not specifically just the Genesis creation). God has always existed - he was not created, does not have a beginning, was not born.


I didn't really intend to create a giant debate - these things typically go nowhere and the thread would end up getting closed with no one convinced of anything. But hopefully at least I've shown to you and others who may be reading that the belief of God and Jesus being the same is not as universal as you might expect, and that many things that confuse people go away when you see them as separate and distinct beings each with specific roles to play.

navarre

You've clearly misunderstood (or ignored) the fundamental theology of Christianity. But I'm glad that that single post on a gaming forum- questioning, above all, why the president resides in the White House- clears completely the debate that has been raging on amongst the best philosophers for thousands of years. Thank you.

__________________

Simon Cowell, what a dick.

RPGMasterTurk91

I'm reviving a controversial topic because we have a new Wii-Chat audience as well as newly active (and inactive) members. Most people reading this now will not have seen this topic brought up.


Anyways, LMFAO so true! I've heard more. That Mary is the Mother of God (LMFAO!!!!!!!!!) or that Mary is God's wife (LMFAO!!!!!!!) and that the two "begot" Jesus (LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!). Begetting is an animal act involving intercourse and this quality of being "begotten" only belongs to creations of God!

Jesus being God himself makes no sense at all; for those of you still with religion, it only makes sense that he was simply one of the most pious messengers God sent, a man subject to those things which human beings are: needs (whereas God is infinite and thus not needy). He was never divine, and the Bible proves it! I'll show how if I get any requests, I will GLADLY show it. It would contradict the very nature of God to turn himself into human form, or to have a son "in his image". He doesn't need to put himself through such a trial, it goes against his nature thus he would never do it. Can God lie? Yes, he is God. But he will never, has never, and had never lied before (in the context of religion in general). Giving a human being God-like qualities and giving God human-like qualities are all corruptions, turned into stories and leaving out any true message (I believe both the Bible and Torah have both been disgustingly corrupted, ESPECIALLY the Bible)

__________________
"Many religions within a nation causes little conflict, but two religions within a nation is nothing less than conflict."
"If you can speak three languages, you are trinomial. If you can speak two languages, you are binomial. If you can speak one language, you are American."
"Speak softly and carry a big stick"--Theodore Roosevelt. Haha describes me nicely.

SSBB: 0602-5954-4722 CURRENTLY RETIRED FROM ONLINE PLAY AND VIDEO GAMES IN GENERAL

ssbb_lover 

Excuse the grammatical errors. For those of you who think that's bashing, it's just putting a touch of humor on truth.

I'm up for an interesting debate.. someone create a *new* thread.

__________________

Super Moderator - PM me if you have any issues.

Quote:

A man's face is his autobiography. A woman's face is her work of fiction.

RPGMasterTurk91

I started a new thread with a controversial topic, be sure to look at it.

To conclude this one, Jesus (for those who believe he even existed) was just a man--a mighty messenger of God. Any slight indication in the bible that he is actually God needs to be read in its full context, because as corrupt as it is, you can prove with the bible that Jesus never even or implied said "I am God, Worship me". He did on the other hand imply and directly say that he nad God are NOT one in the same; he prayed TO God and thus worshipped him. He refers to God in the Bible, and this point alone should be enough. "I am not Good, only God is good".-->I will get a whole list of verses with their respective chapters and verse numbers if anyone wants me to; Jesus, by the Bible, is NOT God! This is a corrupted teaching even though the words written in the current hundreds of versions of the bible have not actually been manipulated as of yet that make Jesus say that He is God and to Worship him.

__________________
"Many religions within a nation causes little conflict, but two religions within a nation is nothing less than conflict."
"If you can speak three languages, you are trinomial. If you can speak two languages, you are binomial. If you can speak one language, you are American."
"Speak softly and carry a big stick"--Theodore Roosevelt. Haha describes me nicely.

SSBB: 0602-5954-4722 CURRENTLY RETIRED FROM ONLINE PLAY AND VIDEO GAMES IN GENERAL

Destiny

Personally, I don't believe in Jesus or God. But according to the Bible, Jesus is the son of God. But people who can't read believe in the Trinity, like Catholics, I believe.

I don't remember all of the examples, but one is that Jesus once said to a shit load of people not to praise him, but to praise God, his father.

Squall7

It's something that isn't really dealt with, people who are illiterate.

Though I think your third sentence needs rewording. Makes it sound as though all Catholics can't read. I'm not offended, I actually found it funny, though I presume your intention was not to say Catholics were illiterate, but to say not all Catholics can read (which is most likely true, in so much that chances are there are atheists or pantheists that cannot read either).

__________________

RPGMasterTurk91

There's a big difference with people who CAN read, and people who DO read. Most people these days (especially in the western world) CAN read. However, the rate in which people investigate and read the actual books on their own is VERY low. I have yet to meet any Christian (out of my fellow classmates) who have read the bible. Even a very religious one I know has only read parts of it through picking and choosing, but never the whole thing, and which version to pick is a huge issue too.

__________________
"Many religions within a nation causes little conflict, but two religions within a nation is nothing less than conflict."
"If you can speak three languages, you are trinomial. If you can speak two languages, you are binomial. If you can speak one language, you are American."
"Speak softly and carry a big stick"--Theodore Roosevelt. Haha describes me nicely.

SSBB: 0602-5954-4722 CURRENTLY RETIRED FROM ONLINE PLAY AND VIDEO GAMES IN GENERAL

navarre

Catholics are apostate scum, they are not Christians, they do need even read the correct Bible. In addition, they pray to Mary, revere the Pope and hate sex passionately.

Anyway, why revive such a decaying thread?

__________________

Simon Cowell, what a dick.

ARav989

I'm Catholic. Our religion needs to get its shit together. After some 12 years of Catholic school, They've only pushed me away from faith.

__________________


"We've all been down this path before
You're trapped in this town
And it wears you down
When we leave today maybe you'll understand
That this constant struggle isn't always in the palm of our hands."

Napalmbrain 

So you're reading from an ancient, preserved copy of the original Greek/Hebrew text then?

__________________

RPGMasterTurk91

ahahahahahaha that was a funny comment for all those who understood the genius behind that comment. Christianity has caused more misery than happiness in the world. All Christian sects are wrong, even though a few parts of the Bible (for all those who believe in God) still remain correct and unchanged. Many Christians are confused and resort to teaching their children THEIR version and interpretation OF Christianity. Many poor Africans are being converted under "Southern Baptist" ideology, which is a large, yet still tiny when in the context of all Christian groups, group. They are being told that "Jesus loves them" as they are being spoon-fed "tasty" food, in which the money used to acquire that food is only a tiny percentage of the total funds at their expense and for personal gain.

Christianity was influenced under a powerful, Pagan Roman Empire. It has been ROMANIZED, or simply, PAGANIZED. Worshiping a human being was never the original message. The Bible actually NEVER commands for people to worship Jesus, and Jesus IN the Bible never does claim that he is God, ancient beliefs have been mixed with practice in religion and the overall corruption of the texts have caused such a blunder.

Also, nobody can ever find the original Bible; it doesn't exist; Muslims believe that the original Bible and Torah were indeed the Words of God
sent to different groups of people, but both have been grossly altered beyond recognition. The Qur'an on the other hand has never changed a single letter since its revelation, just as it is said withIN the Qur'an. If all the bibles in the world were burned, you could not get the original back, or any other versions for that matter. If the same were to happen to all the Qur'ans on the other hand, tens of thousands of people who have memorized the same Qur'an could EASILY bring it back on paper within a single day, without arguing over which is legitimate or not.

__________________
"Many religions within a nation causes little conflict, but two religions within a nation is nothing less than conflict."
"If you can speak three languages, you are trinomial. If you can speak two languages, you are binomial. If you can speak one language, you are American."
"Speak softly and carry a big stick"--Theodore Roosevelt. Haha describes me nicely.

SSBB: 0602-5954-4722 CURRENTLY RETIRED FROM ONLINE PLAY AND VIDEO GAMES IN GENERAL

navarre

No, I am reading from the King James version, which used Hebrew and Greek texts.

I agree. In other words, ALL Catholics should convert to some Protestant denomination. I go to an ANGLICAN school, and it's done the exact opposite, it has made me closer to God and therefore my Protestant religion. Protestantism WILL conquer Rome and the Vatican, St Peter's Basilica WILL be turned into a Protestant cathedral, and your portion of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre WILL become Protestant, so we can worship in the Holy Church alongside and in harmony with our Eastern Orthodox brothers.

__________________

Simon Cowell, what a dick.

Monsteroids

...I believe people are inherently good. This conflicts with the available Christian texts right off the bat.

I also believe that we don't really gain empowerment from the organized belief of the man in the sky. Worship or not.

Despite Pagan belief being nothing more than a colorful fantasy to me, Germanic Paganism has always been a far more interesting study to me than the Abrahamic religions simply due to the many personalities and the awareness of it's fictional properties. Also the Aboriginal story of Raven was always interesting to hear during school.

There is plenty an individual can gain from a story, but not so much from an order.
I guess the morality in many Christian texts always conflicted with my moral code.

__________________

Napalmbrain 

And why should the King James version be any better than the hundreds of other translations? No knows exactly what the original texts were (thanks to translation errors, copying mistakes, political changes, etc.), so it seems to me that no version can really make any claim to be more authorative than any other version.

Here's a little mental exercise: replace 'Protestant' and 'Anglican' with 'Muslim' in that post. Makes you sound like one of those crazy Islamic extremists, doesn't it?

__________________

ARav989

My belief on the bible and all those religious texts are that unless it has some historical evidence it isn't true. i believe that all those stories without evidence are just moral stories trying to get us to live our life better. None of that,"oh hey if you live life like we say, You'll go to heaven." It's more like, "If you live life our way, you'll be kept under control, live a more healthy life, and you'll be a better part of society"

__________________


"We've all been down this path before
You're trapped in this town
And it wears you down
When we leave today maybe you'll understand
That this constant struggle isn't always in the palm of our hands."

navarre

Because it was the first edition commissioned in English. If it weren't for Protestants, we wouldn't know what the priest was (excuse the pun) adam and eveing about.

Not really, I count Muslims as my brothers. At least they don't put a man as head of their religion, and at least they pray to God. Catholics have done nothing but blaspheme, commit idolatry and worship the Pope ever since their disgrace of a religion was founded. When Protestantism was created, Luther expected every Catholic to folllow suite. Indeed, many converted in their thousands, and even to this day Catholics convert to Protestantism, the True Religion, especially in America, with its high Hispanic community. However, why an institution like the Catholic Church is still around today is beyond me.

__________________

Simon Cowell, what a dick.

Napalmbrain 

So?

But you guys have the Archbishop of Canterbury...

And Catholics don't?

Don't you Protestants have like, 80 million denominations or something? How it can be the "true religion" when there's so many different versions of it?

__________________

Athronox

God is a fabrication.