Wiimote latency - my final question answered

[Jenova]

This makes perfect sense. There is a small lag time in the motions you make with the Wii-mote to the cursor on-screen. (Although, it seems on Trauma Center I experiance VERY little lag, if any at all.) This makes me want to test that with a video... I think I'll do just that.

 

[Colmino]

Erm, how does it stifle options for developers? Considering that the lag itself includes the time it takes to compute and translate movement onto the program itself. Perhaps a predictve system for movements would do better, but so far, experience from everyone (Including people in this thread) deem the lag as not a problem.

It is a little curious to frequently find questions necessitating answers that were given prior to the question. How does it stifle options for developers? I gave the examples right before this question.

Light gun game: No possible option to support a quickdraw in any adequately legitimate sense. I can't really imagine playing Gumshoe or Hogan's Alley - two games which demand repeated examples of quick flicks of the wrist and presses of the trigger. The player will begin to discover that if they are just a little too fast for the controller of all things, they will miss. How this stifles: Well, we don't see any light gun games yet. Duck Hunt is maybe the best such game for the Wiimote since much of its gameplay involves a forgiving system of carefully orienting on a bare handful of moving targets, so I fully expect it to come first.

Pointer: In the Wiimote's capacity as an effective replacement for a traditional mouse, things are not so grim, as the aiming is represented with an icon. Yet, the inaccuracies of simple, smooth motions of the Wiimote - movements which I have not been able to achieve replicas of onscreen except when moving very carefully on a horizontally perfect left/right plane - are a stifling component, necessitating huge targets (clickable buttons) in compesation for the inaccuracy. And the activity of the icon lags visibly behind the motion of the Wiimote, further necessitating larger targets.

Steering wheel: This should be pretty easy. If I had to drive a car whose transmission somehow quite uniquely exhibited a noticable delay between the operation of its steering wheel and the corresponding turn of the tires... well, that is a car that I would not be driving, for fear of my life. Or to put it another way: Mario Kart Double Dash would never be fully playable if it relied upon the Wiimote as opposed to a lag-free solution. (You'd be welcome to try; I'd stomp your lagged backside into the asphault with contemptable ease.)

Nowhere have I seen it stated that "Every" game featured on a Nintendo console will be playable on the Wii.

No, clearly not, and I never said that it had been. What I did say is that Nintendo's earliest indications of the Wii's backwards compatibility were left irresponsibly ambiguous, leaving it up to their inevitably casual customer base to assume varying degrees of improbability. You and I, for example, have the presence of reality to understand that even though the Wii can surely emulate all the old systems, licensing issues would prevent the Wii from ever being able to play 100% of the old games. On the other end of the spectrum, there are hoardes of people who know enough about the Wii's touted abilities to assume that you can plug NES and SNES cartridges directly into the machine. I am attributing this result to a purposeful agenda of shepherding on Nintendo's part; they can say they never claimed any such thing, and still end up with a lot of people who believe the Wii can. And believe me, pretty much right up to the point where most of these people are getting their machines home, they do believe it.

I've personally played many a game in which reaction times were a major factor, and I can say that with a hand on my heart, I can tolerate it, if I even notice it.

Point taken. And please accept that I, personally, would never play a multiplayer FPS that adds 150ms of lag, regardless of any corresponding enemy handicaps, and that there are countless other people who would share this sentiment. For the record, Goldeneye did not have controller lag.

Sorry, it's just that the use of the word "Swish" usually connotes an extravagant movement.

That, my friend, is why I took pains to give an exact timing.

the computer may recognise the difference in time of 0.15 seconds, a mere human will not.

I cannot find a subtle way to label this statement as anything but manifestly incorrect.

 

[Squall7]

It is a little curious to frequently find questions necessitating answers that were given prior to the question. How does it stifle options for developers? I gave the examples right before this question.

Light gun game: No possible option to support a quickdraw in any adequately legitimate sense. I can't really imagine playing Gumshoe or Hogan's Alley - two games which demand repeated examples of quick flicks of the wrist and presses of the trigger. The player will begin to discover that if they are just a little too fast for the controller of all things, they will miss. How this stifles: Well, we don't see any light gun games yet. Duck Hunt is maybe the best such game for the Wiimote since much of its gameplay involves a forgiving system of carefully orienting on a bare handful of moving targets, so I fully expect it to come first.

You're assuming that the Wii will register the gunfire before the movement. Likwise, you're also assuming that the player can respond in 0.15 seconds.

Pointer: In the Wiimote's capacity as an effective replacement for a traditional mouse, things are not so grim, as the aiming is represented with an icon. Yet, the inaccuracies of simple, smooth motions of the Wiimote - movements which I have not been able to achieve replicas of onscreen except when moving very carefully on a horizontally perfect left/right plane - are a stifling component, necessitating huge targets (clickable buttons) in compesation for the inaccuracy. And the activity of the icon lags visibly behind the motion of the Wiimote, further necessitating larger targets.

When using a pointer, you don't usually go at lightning fast speed.

Steering wheel: This should be pretty easy. If I had to drive a car whose transmission somehow quite uniquely exhibited a noticable delay between the operation of its steering wheel and the corresponding turn of the tires... well, that is a car that I would not be driving, for fear of my life. Or to put it another way: Mario Kart Double Dash would never be fully playable if it relied upon the Wiimote as opposed to a lag-free solution. (You'd be welcome to try; I'd stomp your lagged backside into the asphault with contemptable ease.)

You're forgetting that you'd be laggy as well when playing it. Just a guess, are you American?

No, clearly not, and I never said that it had been. What I did say is that Nintendo's earliest indications of the Wii's backwards compatibility were left irresponsibly ambiguous, leaving it up to their inevitably casual customer base to assume varying degrees of improbability. You and I, for example, have the presence of reality to understand that even though the Wii can surely emulate all the old systems, licensing issues would prevent the Wii from ever being able to play 100% of the old games. On the other end of the spectrum, there are hoardes of people who know enough about the Wii's touted abilities to assume that you can plug NES and SNES cartridges directly into the machine. I am attributing this result to a purposeful agenda of shepherding on Nintendo's part; they can say they never claimed any such thing, and still end up with a lot of people who believe the Wii can. And believe me, pretty much right up to the point where most of these people are getting their machines home, they do believe it.

So what, you're saying that Nintendo 'Deliberately mislead' people into believing this? You do realise that these things take time, and what was said was merely a suggestion of what COULD happen. It was speculation on the part of the consumer. Nintendo didn't play along - it hardly said anything. Once again, this is a case of people blaming Nintendo for their own hopes being dashed (Like the holographic Projector or the fact that the Wii isn't HD).

Point taken. And please accept that I, personally, would never play a multiplayer FPS that adds 150ms of lag, regardless of any corresponding enemy handicaps, and that there are countless other people who would share this sentiment. For the record, Goldeneye did not have controller lag.

Goldeneye did have lag. That I am definite about. Every now and then, pressing the 'b' button would (over 0.15 seconds later) bring up the next weapon. Likewise, there was sometimes lag when using the analogue stick.

That, my friend, is why I took pains to give an exact timing.

I would like to see your calculations on the matter.

I cannot find a subtle way to label this statement as anything but manifestly incorrect.

Let me rephrase. A computer may recognise a 0.15 difference. A player who is thinking and doing several things at once (e.g. changing weapon, thinking of strategy and moving the character closer to his target) will not. If you're doing nothing but waiting for somebody to pop up, then I could understand a little lag. But by the same token, when you're playing against someone, unless they know exactly where you are, and are spraying bullets before they even see you, then they'll have the exact same lag time.

Have you ever played the game whereby you have to press the stopwatch on exactly 1 second? Instead, as soon as you see the 1 in the seconds digit, press it. I'm interested in seeing how much slower time seems to travel for you...

 

[Sovieto]

The Sensor bar does NOT transitmit any data from the Wiimote to the Wii itself. For example, this kid tok his sensor bar completely off, turned off all the lights, and used two candles in place of the sensor bar... and it works better.

GameTrailers.com - User Movie: WII candle sensor by samydabukiex

Honestly, Nintendo is pawning off some terribly old technology and just using it in a new way to control games... but hell, it works and it's fun.

i <3 your sig
and they did the same thing with the ds (touch screen, double screen)
but hey its hella fun

 

[Colmino]

You're assuming that the Wii will register the gunfire before the movement. Likwise, you're also assuming that the player can respond in 0.15 seconds.

The above two suggestions exemplify either an inability or a refusal to grasp the points I laid down throughout my posts. But here goes.

1: The buttons, triggers, etc. are all instantaneous. I have already said this. People have confirmed this.

2: Think about the scenario and you will see that a person need not have a 150 millisecond reaction time. Let's say you're pointing the Wiimote at spot A. You're watching a ten-second countdown. At the end of this countdown, you are going to immediately aim and fire at point B. Before the countdown reaches zero, you will NOT be aiming at point B. The countdown reaches zero. You aim-and-fire! Bad news. The Wii thinks you're aiming somewhere between points B and A. Maybe even at point A, still. There is nothing that can be done to compensate for this. If the game "caches" trigger presses to equate the Wiimote's latency, the risk shifts to a new problem: the strong likelihood that the player will have moved to a different target by that time.

You're forgetting that you'd be laggy as well when playing it.

This time I'm not following you. In Mario Kart, if I had to turn in an instant to avoid some collision, my chances would be dimmed considerably by the Wiimote latency. Far better if they ignored that option altogether and stuck with the nunchuk's analog pad (or, better, the classic controller).

I would like to see your calculations on the matter.

Read earlier posts.

But by the same token, when you're playing against someone, unless they know exactly where you are, and are spraying bullets before they even see you, then they'll have the exact same lag time.

Here, you are describing the FPS counterpart to my observation about the racing game which plays like a rollercoaster. The only situations where the Wiimote's latency edges towards being a non-issue are those specialized - or deliberately coordinated (read: stifled options) - moments when reflexes don't matter quite so much. The programmers must develop games which coddle players.

 

[the ryanator]

Deyo

 

[Wiidiculous]

Then the lag between the wiimote and the console is acceptable.



I doubt this is caused by lag in the wireless connection at all as you have said yourself, the other buttons work fine. Rather, the delay is likely there purposefully. In the case of the system menus or other pointing functions, it is likely there to reduce unnecessary jittering of the cursor. A mouse can be set still, but a pointer is still being held by a human hand and not perfectly still. In the case of gesture recognition like in Wii Sports, it needs to take the time to let you finish your gesture, or at least complete more of it.

I wanted to second this opinion. As a software developer who has worked with both cameras and accelerometers, my guess is that the low-pass filtering is the major source of delay. Low-pass filter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The delay comes from multiple sources, but I think this is the largest of them.

 

[LordVance]

The O.P. pretends as if he wants to have a real discussion on this, yet for some reason he completely skips over my reply to the thread. Let me quote a small section which I would like him/her to pay attention to and reply to if he wishes to actually have a discussion:

Nintendo has stated that they worked diligently to try and find a solution that would let the system work up to par without the sensor bar, but were incapable. I don't know enough about the alternative technologies to make a guess as to why, but if the O.P. can give us a product/brand name for the motion capture mouse he is using, that would go a long way towards helping.

And here is the quote from your O.P.

To such a video, I would add the result from a wireless mouse I've owned for years, which manages to be latency-free as well as sensor bar-free and yet works like a charm at three-dimensional hand motions.

If you indeed do own a mouse when can accomplish this, it should not be a problem to give us a product name so we can research the technology involved and how it compares with the technology behind the Wii-Mote.


What you have to remember is that the remote CAN track movement in full 3D lag free. The lag comes from a separate calculation entirely, which is the IR camera that tracks movement in relation to the television. I personally, am convinced that any lag in the non-pointer related functions of the Wii is software related and not hardware based.


Also, do you really think 150ms is too much lag for the average FPS? How hardcore can you possibly be? If you think its enough to give you an edge I challenge you to a Quake III rocket-arena deathmatch. Find a way to throttle my bandwidth so I hover about 150ms higher than you and lets have a 10 frag, best 3 out of 5 match to see if it helps you much. I'm not trying to say "IR1337GAMER!!!" here; just that I have been an avid FPS fan on the PC platform for years, and have never called off clan matches for anything lower than 250ms. I know WTG has no official ruling in lag what-so-ever, assuming there are no actual player disconnects; they find it fair to have a scored match during high latency situations.


EDIT:
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[/quote]fear the day they finally port a NES light gun game over - strange that they avoided such an obvious choice, yes?[/quote]

Wii Play - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Scroll down to the shooter game remarkably similar to Duck Hunt. If you have been so avidly researching the Wii since for a year now, how did you miss this anticipated title?

Have you even played a FPS on a console before? Having played many myself, and basing the Wii-Motes capabilities in this area on the rail-shooter levels within the game Rayman Raving Rabbids I can assure you that I am FAR quicker to move my aim across the screen with the Wii-Mote than say, a thumb stick. Sure, its not as fast or accurate as a mouse - and its unlikely we will have a better solution to the mouse for FPS games anytime soon. The fact of the matter is though, your comparing a CONSOLE aiming device, which blows analog sticks out of the water; to a modern mouse, which many of have been hand tailored specifically for FPS performance.

Do you want to do a "real" test on the subject? How about comparing the average seek time of a player while using the Wii-Mote to the average seek time while using an analog stick, such as in Halo/Halo 2. Just in case you are unsure, by "seek time" I am referring to the time it takes for the user to accurately recenter his aim on a different area of the screen.

Now grab your mouse and act shocked when you ZOMFG aim significantly better than either of them. Consoles are a poor platform for FPS titles, they always have been. The Wii takes us one step in the right direction, but is far from perfect. Still, its incredibly enjoyable and I have no complaints about the supposed 150ms delay.

One more thing, you don't have to keep calling it a "phenomenon" for everyone to accept its existence. The denotation of the word may fit in this case, but its far from the connotation and commonly accepted use.

 

[Inspire]

Right, 150ms is noticeable. In fact, 150ms should be the official threshold where 'ffs lag' stops making you a greifer and actually becomes a legitimate complaint; I play enough fps on the PC to know. I don't feel that the Wiimote's latency is 150ms. Hence this is not a problem for me, and I don't worry about it. I think a lot of the folks here are in the same boat.

 

[jus.]

To the OP:

IR *only* controls the onscreen pointer.

Your mouse doesn't use a pixel perfect pointer, it picks it's initial spot on your desk and bases it's movements around where it goes from there. Same with the wii mote. I've been in the bathroom taking a leak and bowled a frame. Sure I couldn't see, but you don't need to. The data from shaking your Wiimote is sent the same as the buttons and game pad. Bluetooth.

This is why you are full of ****. Even if everything you said is true, you lack a basic understanding of what it is you are speaking.

 

[therook]

2: Think about the scenario and you will see that a person need not have a 150 millisecond reaction time. Let's say you're pointing the Wiimote at spot A. You're watching a ten-second countdown. At the end of this countdown, you are going to immediately aim and fire at point B. Before the countdown reaches zero, you will NOT be aiming at point B. The countdown reaches zero. You aim-and-fire! Bad news. The Wii thinks you're aiming somewhere between points B and A. Maybe even at point A, still. There is nothing that can be done to compensate for this. If the game "caches" trigger presses to equate the Wiimote's latency, the risk shifts to a new problem: the strong likelihood that the player will have moved to a different target by that time.

how about you use your eyes... and fire when the cursor/crosshair is over the target? your problem their is YOUR firing too early... what YOU think is lag caused by a slow moving target is that you have to realise that your wiimote may be pointing at that exact spot and moving...

I played Wii Play (the duck hunt style one)

which involved quick response times as your playing against someone else..

and after I got used to it... I had no problem...

I am a twitch gamer at heart I play PC fps's and I can tell when lag is being an influence...

and being 100% honest... once I got used to the sensitivity I was perfectly fine hitting my targets...

theRook

edit I will also point out that when playing FPS on the PC (usign a mouse) you dont stare at the mouse trying to work out if their is lag on the cursor...

you look at the cursor and when its over your target you fire... or a split second before if your "spraying"

 

[therook]

To the OP:

IR *only* controls the onscreen pointer.

Your mouse doesn't use a pixel perfect pointer, it picks it's initial spot on your desk and bases it's movements around where it goes from there. Same with the wii mote. I've been in the bathroom taking a leak and bowled a frame. Sure I couldn't see, but you don't need to. The data from shaking your Wiimote is sent the same as the buttons and game pad. Bluetooth.

This is why you are full of ****. Even if everything you said is true, you lack a basic understanding of what it is you are speaking.

while using a few rude words he is exactly right... the IR only detects the position of the cursor on the screen...

IR is only used for position and as such would never be used to STEER in a racing game... that is the point of teh accelerometers & motion sensors...

TheRook

p.s. jus... if I ever meet you I will not use your Wiimote I'll bring my own

 

[jus.]

haha rook that's what water(and pee)tight skins are for! haha


who said they played wii play? did you mean wii sports? if not how?

 

[therook]

I played the Wii down in brighton on the Nintendo travelling show...

I played Tennis & Wii Play (the duck hunt style minigame)

Tennis doesn't use the IR and the racket moved as I did.. so no problem there

and other than the sensitivity being too high for my liking on the other Wii playing Wii Play the accuracy was fine and I fired once the crosshair was over the target... not when I thought the wiimote was pointing at the target...
so I experience no "lag"

TheRook

 

[jus.]

Neat.

I took it to the bathroom mostly to make a Wii/Wee pun. Nobody laughed and I only hit like 6 pins.