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I'm extremely disappointed in the WII

Discussion in 'Nintendo Wii Chat' started by kenn, Nov 16, 2006.

  1. kenn

    kenn WiiChat Member

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    I played the WII at Gamestop for about 30 minutes (excite truck) and based on that experience, along with the hundreds of screen shots, reviews starting to pour in, and the actual hardware specs now pretty much public, I must say that I'm extremely disappointed in Nintendo and the WII.

    First, on a positive note, Nintendo really hit the ball out of the park with the new controller scheme. I must say that it was VERY slick and does show some amazing promise to take console gaming in a new (and better IMHO) direction. Sadly, N left way too much on the table for this to be a long-term success.

    There are some critical flaws, here, that make me wonder if the WII will end up being a Dreamcast... Lots of potential but dying fairly quickly.

    The single biggest flaw is the hardware. Based on the specifications that I've seen and the numerous statements posted by developers and others, this is merely a sped-up gamecube. The Horsepower looks to be about 1.5x the current gamecube and one must keep in mind that some of the new horsepower will be required to manage the new controller interaction. Even if the new controller system uses zero overhead, we're still only talking about CPU, GPU, and memory that are very similar to the original XBOX. Sadly disappointing. I would have expected N to produce hardware that was at least halfway between a ps2 and ps3 or 2/3 of the way from the XBOX to the 360. The Xbox, for example, was a 733Mhz CPU or so. The 360 is a 3.2 Gigahertz multi-core processor. I'd certainly think that a dual core 1+ Ghz or 2+ gigahertz single core CPU would have been more in order here. Same goes for the GPU... It should certainly have much healthier texturing capabilities than it does. The (slightly) stronger GPU will help some, but textured surfaces will continue to be flat and polygon counts will continue to be quite low for WII games. (note that every round or cylindrical object on the WII demos is a low-polygon shape. This is a clear indication of the lack of polygon-pushing-prowess) All of this said, there won't be a "revolution" in the quality of games in the next year that many keep saying will happen. This is because the development platform for the WII is a tweaked Gamecube and is quite mature. Pretty much everything is known and it will just be a matter of maximizing texture, polygon count, framerate, resolution, etc. for each specific game based on the ability to push a few more polygons. Nothing new here. No new co-processors or special chips designed to help the CPU/GPU by offloading some heavy number crunching tasks...

    The second major issue which is strongly correlated to the first, is pricing. Given the very marginal bump in hardware performance, the Price of $250 is simply ridiculous. The GameCube can be had for 79 dollars at retail and that is presumably profitable or at least breakeven for Nintendo. Given that, I can't see where this box should have been priced more than $179 or maybe $199 as a stretch. At $250, this box should be a helluva lot closer to the X360 in terms of raw computing power! To add insult to injury, the cost of a wii-mote plus a nunchuck runs, what, 69.95 per unit? Four players will be costly indeed!

    In addition to the WII hardware price point, the games are listed, at the moment, as a $49.95 price point -- this stated by Nintendo as their goal to keep their games $10 cheaper than PS3 and X360. Unfortunately, the games aren't going to be that much better graphically and I personally don't want to pay $50 bucks for last-gen presentation. I'll admit the WII-Mote adds some value, but twice the price? There are a LOT of GC games out there that are $19.95 and the premium titles like Star Wars Lego II are $39.95. Given that a Gamecube will be close in terms of graphics quality, I suspect that many, like myself, will just stick with the GC for family games and see how the WII plays out over the next year. I suspect the WII will have a $149 price point by next Christmas as people begin to realize the unit, graphically, is already hitting a wall. Nintendo is really going to be in a pickle when the Xbox 360 price comes down in line as they'll have to drop their price and many will be angered by having to pay such a high price for the unit at launch only to see the price drop rather significantly less than a year later.

    Given all this, I do love a whole lot about what Nintendo does. They have a library second to NONE for family and younger kids entertainment. There is no substitute for the Big N when it comes to family/party games and games for younger kids, period.

    IMO, Nintendo SHOULD have designed the WII-mote system for the GC and launched it as an accessory with a pack-in (wii sports) and Zelda. They could refine the technology and then release the WII as a closer to next-gen console next Christmas and maintain backward compatiblity including the wii-motes so the cost was a new console only.

    One last thought: Given the desire for N to appeal to mass audiences with the WII, grabbing adult and hardcore gamers (in addition to family/kids) is a must. Adults and hardcore gamers love complex sports and deep, graphically-rich FPS games. This is fact... The WII simply doesn't have the graphical horsepower to provide enough graphical pleasantry to attract that core group and hence, the WII is going to be relegated to the same place the Gamecube is: Family/Party games and kids games. Hardcore gamers won't be showing up for the party and once again, Nintendo will have a fringe console that relies very heavily on 1st person licenses.

    Feel free to disagree, but please provide a legitimate reason where my reasoning is flawed and offer an intelligent counter.
     
  2. Wiitime

    Wiitime the guy below- HES BACK!!

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    Strong post, but i have read so many other reviews from ign, and people on this board who have played the wii. All of them have been good. Ign has somedowners but nothing awful. To me, i still think it sounds great and plan on getting it.. Sorry you didnt enjoy it
     
  3. NintendoKing

    NintendoKing WiiChat Member

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    Im sorry you didnt enjoy it but im kind of pleased someone dosent like it and give it 10/10 gives you another insight. :)
     
  4. Inspire

    Inspire '';aM;'' Inspire

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    The clockspeed of the main processor is almost twice that of the GC. The GPU is a revised architecture, as well - expecting it to scale linearly doesn't really hold water.

    The GC launched at $200. Since production process evolve over time, this eventually dropped to $100. This phenomenon happens with every peice of computing hardware. Same thing should happen with the Wii.

    Multi-threaded development is slow and expensive. N wanted to counter this by keeping the console single-threaded. $50 may still be too much for some games, though, I agree. As for complex sports - I'm looking forward to Madden '07 on the Wii - I don't see how you can't say it's not complex...

    I have to disagree on N being limited to 1st party games, though. I think 3rd party devs will see the innovation and the relative ease with which they can make games for the Wii versus the other consoles and try to get around the graphical 'limitations'.

    All that being said, if N doesn't go multi-core by their next gen, expect them to lose big time. Innovation will carry you only so far.

    That's all I can say - other than that, you made a well-thought-out post.
     
  5. xaviermacx

    xaviermacx WiiChat Member

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    You have decent points, except for the one about the price. You haven't considered the fact that the technology in the controller costs a lot more, you only looked at the system itself. $250 is more than a fair price and to say that they could have powered it up more at that price point is ridiculous.
     
  6. kenn

    kenn WiiChat Member

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    As I understand it, there are release technical drawings/specs on the new CPU showing it as a reduced die-size and power consumption but other than those items, plus the increased clock speed, there isn't much difference. I could be wrong, of course, but if that is indeed true I would say that incresed processing will be LESS than linear. Increases in clock speed on a P4 from say 1 to 1.2Ghz, and all else equal, have historically not provided a "20 percent" increase in overall computing as the overall architecture of the chip, the connection to the bus, etc., are major factors. Revolutions in speed have come from new bus design, new core design, faster on-die cache, new computing algorithms, etc. Maybe there is more there than has been divulged, but I'm suspect that isn't the case.

    Thanks for that piece of data. I was unaware the GC launched at $200. I thought is was less. Given, though, that the hardware is a"renovated" GC platform, I'd expect some significant cost savings. That said, Nintendo put 2+ years in dev on the controller scheme and they have to get that money back ASAP in case the unit flops. I certainly understand their pricing, but don't agree with it. :)

    Complex, yes, graphically impressive -- not really. That's a big loss for hard-core gamers.

    Absolutely agree. A nintendo library of family entertainment, party, kids, AND the ability to compete presentation-wise with the latest generation is a winning combination in my opinion.

    Thanks for the reply...

    Ken
     
  7. epikon

    epikon WiiChat Member

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    good post. however i personally think that almost all of it is based around the graphical element of the wii. I personally dont care about the graphic. my pc rig tears apart the 360 and ps3. if i want to play a game with good graphic ill play on my pc. i have pre-ordered the wii for 2 reasons. the remote and game play. in your post you stated yourself that the controls are nice. and with titles such as red steel zelda etc i have no worries. as long as the wii keep on brining out a fair amount of T and M rated games i will be happy. good post but remember you've played one game (which i think is a poor game anyway) for 30 mins.

    edit:

    i am/used to be a hardcore gamer, playing fps' competively at a fairly high level. and i tell you games are not about graphic. me and almost all the players i played with on cod used configs to reduce our graphic to the bare minimun so our fps can be as high as possible. i did this for months. i played cod on graphics that made it look worse than half life 1....out of all the games ive played, and thats ALOT even the new games with graphic better than a 360 or ps3 no game comes close to the enjoyment i had from cod.
     
    #7 epikon, Nov 16, 2006
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2006
  8. kenn

    kenn WiiChat Member

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    Let me also add, that I'm not a hater. I really do want to see Nintendo successful because there are games for the console that I can't get anywhere else that are fun for my daughter and wife. I'd love to see the Wii sell 50 million units worldwide so the 3rd party CAN'T ignore the platform. I just think they have made a few critical mistakes that are going to prevent it from happening. I'll buy a WII -- just not at the $250 price point plus another 200-250 for four Wii-Motes/Nunchucks. I'll wait for a price drop, pick it up, and get rid of my daughters GC console since I'll still be able to use everything else.
     
  9. vagrant

    vagrant ₪ ۩ ₪

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    Weak post.

    Seeing as how you used fakefanboy terminology like "horsepower," makes it pretty evident that your argument is based off of something you read. Probably some lame gaming sites review, or off a playstation forum.

    Nintendo wii will sell shitloads. And everyone will shutup about the wii once they realized how hard it dominated.
     
  10. tuned

    tuned 11.19.06

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    Well said! :thumbsup:

     
  11. chessaholic

    chessaholic WiiChat Member

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    Im not great 9in fact im downright rubbish) with all these figures of processor speeds etc, but i do know graphics arent the idea behind the wii. Wii Sports for example is SUPPOSED to look simple. And although there are people out there (presumably yourself) who cares about these graphics, wii perhaps isnt designed to be their main console; perhaps a secondary console to go next to their xbox360 or ps3. Also i think it unfair to compare the price of the gamecube to the wii. The graphics are probably better than you think compared to the old 'cube, since the wii has wifi etc (and has capabilities to get news, weather, browse internet download games etc), can read info (not sure of 'technical way of saying this) off four wireless remotes at once, sending data back for the speaker etc, has 512mb flash memory, plays games with better graphics, has the ability to play NES, SNES, N64 games (though i dont imagine this is difficult) plus many more. And then it also does everything the gamecube used to do. Also, im not sure exactly what happened with the dreamcast, but i very very much doubt the wii will do the same: There are going to be at least 4 million wiis out there before 2007, and even gamers such as myself are only just managing to get them. The UK online retailer play.com, who are very popular over here sold out of their first batch in a couple of weeks. Magazines everwhere are giving twilight princess and other games great reviews, and it looks as though the great games are to keep on coming. Nintendo are trying to do something differant, so comparing it to the gamecube, xbox360 or indeed any console is- in my opinion at least- the wrong thing to do. And on the prices, i actually think nintendo make a loss on their first load of wiis... thats also why the games are so much- to get the money back in.
     
  12. Kirby64

    Kirby64 WiiChat Member

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    I have to agree with vagrant, OP's post screams PS3/Xbox360 fanboy.

    Let me condense the OP's post into two sentences:

    Waaah, the Wii costs too much; it's just a better GameCube, it should be cheaper!

    and

    The Wii has crappy graphics; it doesn't have 1080p resolution and 16x AA + 16x AF + HDR, why doesn't Nintendo make it more high-def!! :cryin:

    These arguements are futile, the Wii has tons of advantages over the Gamecube. First off, let's just say, for theory sake, that its just a slightly better GameCube processing wise. Let's list off what's added to Wii that's not in GCN:
    WiFi, completely free.
    512MB of memory so you don't need to shell out $$ for mem cards
    Virtual Console, Web Browser, and all the other online capable things that GCN never had.
    SD card reader for even more space if needed
    Free game packed right in

    That list doesn't even touch on the controller scheme and it's brilliance.

    I suggest the OP step back and take a reality check on how stupid it would be to implement a Wii-mote addon to the GCN. This line of thinking has been crossed before, but it's still stupid as ever. A Wii-mote addon wouldn't be able to provide full sized DVDs for more space for content, it wouldn't be able to provide all the online features, and beyond that, it wouldn't be able to provide the extra processing power needed to run the games how they look now.
     
  13. vagrant

    vagrant ₪ ۩ ₪

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    Nintendo wii games cost the same as playstation 2, gamecube, and xbox/360 games did when they first came out, and are 10 dollars cheaper than like all ps3 games. So that doesn't really make sense. If I want to play games just for good graphics, I'll spend 500$ on a barebone system with a tight graphics card and play on the pc.
     
  14. ABC

    ABC Banned

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    Not trying to flame or anything here but how can a person be a FANboy of TWO different systems? Isn't a fan someone that has passion for and loves ONE team? It seems this word fanboy is being thrown around like a hooker in Las Vegas on the internet. And quite frankly it annoys me.
     
  15. epikon

    epikon WiiChat Member

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    No need for that. I agree with you with the second paragraph, however you should respect other peoples views. I personally feel he constructively critised the wii which i more than welcome. he could have easily just said "the wii is ****, wont sell because it has crap games which look like n64 graphics." but he didnt..
     
  16. kenn

    kenn WiiChat Member

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    Obviously you meant to say, "My weak post is as follows:

    I can certainly talk in terms of clock cycles per second, bits per second, bus speeds, bits processed per cpu cycle, multi-threading, merits of L2-cache on and off die if you prefer, but most quasi-intelligent people are comfortable with seeing the word "Horsepower" used metaphorically about such specific data. Clearly you aren't (intelligent or comfortable with metaphors) so I'd be happy to discuss the actual processor data sheet.

    http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/2F33B5691BBB8769872571D10065F7D5/$file/ppc750cl_ds_dd20_5oct06.pdf

    That's the link to the new power pc chip. Here's a free pass for you to put one or both feet in your mouth before you respond: I work in the semiconductor industry.
     
  17. white89gt

    white89gt WiiChat Member

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    To add to this, I think it has become common practice for all console manufacturers to take a hit on the console and make it up on software sales.

    As far as comparing the Wii to the X360 and PS3, its like comparing apples to oranges (in more ways than one, not just a specs race). The three systems were designed for different reasons and for different types of games. Does the Wii compare to the PS3 and X360 in terms of pure computing power? The answer to that is clearly no. However, I think the Wii will wind up being exactly what Nintendo was trying to create. In all honesty, I could care less about graphics and computing power. Give me a good game that will take me a while to beat, be changelling but not so much so that I lose interest, and a responsive control system and I'll be happy regardless of the machine it runs on.
     
  18. Inspire

    Inspire '';aM;'' Inspire

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    Just a couple things here, kenn.

    I didn't mean to say that you shouldn't expect the CPU to scale linearly - I really mean that the GPU is on a revised architecture and that it should scale a little better than linearly. Also, I'm not so sure it's fair to compare an early P4 to a PowerPC processor in terms of scaling. The early P4's didn't scale well at all...

    And... I don't consider sports-gamers to be hardcore, so i suppose we just have conflicting criteria there.... :)

    You brought up the price of the controller, but let me remind you that the wireless controllers for the 360 still retail at $50 a pop. Considering the hardware you're talking about, N doesn't have a bade pricing scheme. The problem comes in when you compare it relative to the system itself and you think 'damn, I could have almost bought a second Wii for the 3 controller setups!' But that's just the economics of it.

    chessaholic, Nintendo is making a profit on every Wii sold - check out the Iwata Asks interviews. Nintendo is different from Sony and MS - they only make video games. As such, they have to turn a profit on the stuff they sell.
     
  19. maxpouliot

    maxpouliot WiiChat Member

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    i don't think the wii will 'flop' and the japanese developers don't think so either.. check this (from Gamespot) out :

    The magazine conducted a survey with 58 developers at 19 Japanese game companies. Included in the mix were directors, programmers and designers -- the people who are making the games, rather than the people making the business decisions.

    First up, a question on how much the developers expect out of the next generation systems. For the PS3, 48% said that they have extremely high expectations for the system, with 32% having just high expectations. 18% said that they don't expect much of the system at all.

    The Xbox 360 got a poorer rating, with 45% saying they're not expecting much of it at all, 40% having high expectations and 13% having extremely high expectations.

    And then, we come to the Wii, which seems to have the favor of the entire Japanese development community. 36% have high expectations for the system, with 63% claiming extremely high expectations. Only 1% of responders said that they weren't expecting all that much from Nintendo's new system.

    Moving on to games, of the PS3's lineup, most developers were excited by Metal Gear Solid 4 (12 votes). This was followed by Final Fantasy XIII (10 votes), The Eye of Judgment (7 votes), Afrika (6 votes) and Heavenly Sword (4 votes). Other games mentioned include Bladestorm, Gran Turismo HD, Lair and Resistance.

    Not surprisingly, Blue Dragon took the top spot for Xbox 360, with 18 votes. This was followed by Lost Odyssey (14 votes), Culdecept Saga (8 votes), Dead Rising (4 votes) and Gundam Operation Troy (4 votes). Other games mentioned include Lost Planet, Gear of War, Riot Act and Idol Master.

    For Wii, Zelda was the overwhelming winner, with 26 votes, followed by Super Mario Galaxy (8 votes), Wii Sports (5 votes), Animal Crossing (3 votes) and Smash Brothers X (3 votes). Other games mentioned include Wario Ware, Fire Emblem, Sonic and Elebits.

    The survey takers were also asked to name their favorite parts of each system. Visual power took the top spot on PS3 with 19 votes, followed by overall hardware specs (10 votes), Cell's computation abilities (9 votes), the built-in hard disk (3 votes) and the use of Blu-Ray (3 votes). Some developers also mentioned PSP connectivity, online functionality, the 6-axis control system and even the brand power associated with PlayStation and Blu-Ray.

    For Xbox 360, Xbox Live was mentioned the most, getting 18 votes. This was followed by the system's ease of development (13 votes), connectivity with Windows Vista (12 votes), visual power (6 votes) and overall hardware balance (4 votes). Developers also mentioned the system's demo download service, ranking system and strength of sales in the North American market.

    Nintendo's unique controller was mentioned most for the Wii, taking 34 votes. It was followed by Wii Connect 24 (9 votes), the Virtual Console (6 votes), ease of development (4 votes) and the console price (3 votes). Other developers mentioned the hardware size, the concept of moving your body, and the focus on light users.

    Finally, Famitsu put all three systems against one another. In the category of system sales, 60% of those surveyed expect Wii to come out on top. PS3 took 37% of the vote compared to Xbox 360's 3%. The PS3's price point was cited as reason for the low expectations.

    Most developers want to try out Wii development. 63% selected Wii as the system they most want to develop for, compared to the PS3's 32% and the Xbox 360's 5%.

    Wii also won out in the category of which system the developers want the most, personally. 49% selected the Nintendo hardware. PS3 was chosen by 42%, with Xbox 360 coming in last at 9%.
     
  20. Inspire

    Inspire '';aM;'' Inspire

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    He didn't say it would flop - he said he's disappointed....

    Nice link, Kenn - but, come on - 4 IPC? 10W Power Consumption @ 1.0GHz? Those are impressive specs!
     
    #20 Inspire, Nov 16, 2006
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2006

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