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Brawl - More or Less Balanced than Melee?

Discussion in 'Smash Brothers' started by LevesqueIsKing, Mar 23, 2008.

  1. LevesqueIsKing

    LevesqueIsKing An Instant Classic

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    I'm going to try to have an educated debate here. Back up your statements with evidence.

    This is NOT a tier list discussion, nor is it a discussion of whether tier lists exist or not. If you've yet to realize that they exist, please do not post in this thread.

    Prior to release, many of the pro's were stating that Brawl was going to revolutionize the Super Smash Bros. series simply due to its equality. Even after release, people continued to praise Brawl for its seemingly perfect balance. However, now that I've scraped away at the golden cover of Brawl, it seems as though it were made of metal.

    I'm really afraid that when we finally recieve that first official tier list the results are going to be devestating. It just seems as though the gap
    between best and worse is SO much more exaggerated this time around. Space animals and Prince Marth will still rule supreme, will still win half of all tournaments, and will still be overused by noobs. And Sakurai did not boost old bottom-tier characters nearly enough, such as Yoshi, destined to be the future scum of Brawl.

    I also doubt that Sakurai realized how much taking out advanced techniques such as L-Cancelling and Wavedashing hurt SPECIFIC characters. Perhaps he thought that it would hurt all characters equally? That happens to be significantly false. Slow characters are punished HORRIBLY if they miss an aerial due to the lack of L-Cancelling, and other characters' playstyles were molded AROUND advanced techniques.

    Don't kid yourselves, tier lists are alive and kicking, and people choose their characters based on them. I mained Falcon in Melee [nearly guaranteed bottom tier in Brawl] and I still love the guy, but fact is that ITS NOT FUN playing as him anymore. You can tell me that I can still win against top tiers, but its NOT FUN losing 2/3 of the time when I could main a top tier and win 9/10 of the time. Hell, I can't even consistently beat my casual friends, let alone computers, with Falcon. I'm not making excuses, I'm stating fact. I'm on the verge of switching back to Melee simply because Falcon was fun to play as back then, and *coincidentally* he was high-mid tier. I don't like Brawl because of this, because it hardly allows me to use the character I want to use. I don't want to switch characters, but I don't want to lose matches that I know I should win, either.

    And now I'll leave you with a question. We were all hoping for 50, even 60 characters, but what is the use of having so many characters if they are so unequal that half of them ARE NOT USED BY ANYONE. I would have rather Sakurai kept Melee's roster and made them completely equal. That would have been the perfect game. You'll see in the coming months that every person online will be using Space Animals, Marth, Pit and Diddy. Sakurai might as well have given us a roster of 5 characters...
     
  2. Brawny

    Brawny Anglophobiphile

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    I main Marth, shaddap. =(

    And I laughed out loud at "space animals"

    Aaaand I'm sure the harder characters to get into may turn out to be more powerful than they seem. IE: Olimar, Lucas.
     
  3. JKill09

    JKill09 WiiChat Member

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    I'm with you. I find it very difficult to use Captain Falcon in this game. In the last game I couldn't be touched, but in Brawl it's a different story. I can use both adventure modes to back this up. The Melee adventure mode was equally (well moreso than not) easy or difficult for each character. When I played Subspace and got to the 'Great Maze', the difficulty varied so much. You had to pick 4 characters and it felt as if I was playing on 4 separate difficulty levels. As far as wavedashing goes, there's really no point in Luigi having bad traction. He's hurt immensely because he could wavedash extremely well because of his horrible traction in Melee. Now he's forced to just run around looking like a fool and gaining nothing from it (unless anybody has found a technique utilizing his slippery ways).
     
  4. KHgamer

    KHgamer WiiChat Member

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    it's less balance, buti consider that a good thing. i dont ever wanna see ike lose 2 jigglypuff. :eek:-watch out ike....
     
  5. JKill09

    JKill09 WiiChat Member

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    ^But in a sense isn't that making some characters "useless"?
     
  6. Destiny

    Destiny Survived WC for 2 years

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    i think people were expecting too much of this game...i even heard there was gonna be 100 characters...wtf?but the game is still my fave.
     
  7. Lugia

    Lugia WiiChat Member

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    on the 64 version i was a fox user. when melee came around i decided to still be a fox user for a little while till one day i started screwing around with ganon in training mode to find i liked his slow style more then anything else. im still a ganon user and now somewhat a PT user even tho my play is mediocre with him. i have never let tiers base my char choices otherwise id probably be trying to use wolf. i dont know much about yoshi but i heard how much better bowser was supposed to be. so much for that.

    i dont think tiers are going to get worse. i honestly think they were so bad for melee that even with 11 more chars youll just have more general classes.

    i dont think too much has been expected of this game because people are still holding up their nearly perfect ratings but when it comes to nuts and bolts you find its a very shallow game.
     
  8. Douten

    Douten WiiChat Member

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    Is it that bad that you can't win him with him against casual friends? I don't know any AT or anything but I do a decent job across the rooster.

    I believe that it's just a new playing style that we will need to get to on certain character and let go of the dependent on previous ATs. I understand that some character are nerf even more without Lcancel and stuff, but there should be other things you can use yes?

    I haven't played the game enough yet to say if it's more balanced or not (as have I with Melee) but from the amount that I've played I say some changes are good.
     
  9. mushroomedmario

    mushroomedmario ssb4life

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    i agree, no matter who i use, i usually get the same results against my friends that play the same person over and over

    they seem way more balanced in this game, and yoshi is a lot better, people just says he sucks because they don't like his playing style, but people who main yoshi could be really good with him
     
  10. Dorkfish

    Dorkfish I'm Good at Games

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    I think that tiers do exist, but that they change over time. People can easily adapt and find away around the powerful characters, or discover a new power.

    That pretty much sums it up right there.
     
  11. LeWaffles

    LeWaffles CUSTOM

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    you should use someone else...
    I think brawl is more balanced simply because it is much slower paced. That gives slow characters a much better chance, look what happened to Bowser. It also sets up the combos really well. No longer existing "adv. Techs" make the game so that any player using any character may execute techniques without having the ridiculously fast moves that were limited to only certain characters. When I play this game, I start to not like Melee, you can see its flaws when you play Brawl.
     
  12. LevesqueIsKing

    LevesqueIsKing An Instant Classic

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    Of course they can be good...for a Yoshi user. And THAT is the point. A Yoshi user with X amount of skill WILL NOT BEAT a Fox user with X amount of skill. In fact, they wouldn't even come close. And no, Yoshi wasn't improved much at all.

    And for whoever asked, no, I can't just 'do something else' with Falcon. Its not 'a different playing style', its a style that demands you be significantly better than a Pit player in order to beat them half the time.
     
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  13. Chewy

    Chewy Shmunior Member

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    I think that it is fairly balanced it's just that some characters have a much steeper learning curve than others. Which pretty much means that it will take more skill to play those characters though...

    Some characters are much easier to use but I think if someone masters one of the harder ones they could beat those who have mastered the easier ones. Although some characters remain pretty much unused(I have NEVER seen anybody play as jigglypuff online), so I guess I would have to somewhat agree with your argument Leve.
     
    #13 Chewy, Mar 24, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2008
  14. Douten

    Douten WiiChat Member

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    Yes tier exists and will always exist if you're going to compare characters. But no player in real life both have the same skill, even if they do they will react differently and learn a disadvantage/advantage to the other player. I'm not saying based on that you can use Yoshi and beat every pro there is, but based on that the game isn't so heavily tiered that people will only use certain character to win, especially in casual play.

    If it's a style that requires you to be a lot better than Pit then so be it, find that style and use it. Or are you saying that style does not exist in Falcon? If so, then there must be other character he has advantage over. I do believe it's just a steeper learning curve that might be discouraging, of course tier counts too, but not so crazy that when played casual it'll still be a problem.

    I play with Jiggly, but I don't main her so I don't play her often online, but I do sometimes : )
     
    #14 Douten, Mar 24, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2008
  15. Lugia

    Lugia WiiChat Member

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    sometimes i feel that way when using ganon. its like the game is punishing you for picking a certain char half the time.

    style? i dunno about falcon but when youre ganon you try chasing someone around a map. you dont have many options at your disposal.
     
  16. LeWaffles

    LeWaffles CUSTOM

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    I totally disagree, first off it's a well known fact that because of the slow down and because he is weaker, Fox has been Nerfed since Melee. On the other hand Yoshi has gotten much stronger in power, a bit slower (but everyone is slower than in melee) and he has a third jump. His Egg tossing hasn't been as good but its a third jump so its alright. I used to use Yoshi in Melee and I killed my friends and I would win maybe 40-60 against my fairly competitive friend using Fox. Trust me yoshi's smash and the rest of his attacks are much stronger than before.
     
  17. spiff-ssbb

    spiff-ssbb WiiChat Member

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    ...what the.... why would you ever WANT less balance?

    anyways back to the thread:

    i've spent this weekend trying to make captain falcon usable competatively... i've made a FEW advancements... such as timing the knee and the d air (whatever its called) a beat later for grounded opponents... but all in all i agree... poor guy got owned by the floaty short hops and L cancel being... canceled.

    i also agree that spacies and marth will remain at the top since mind games for spacies and spacing for marth played a bigger role than the shffl in melee. but i do believe that some new comers will join them in the upper ranks... most namely ike, pit maybe, meta maybe, and toon link. but yes there are some major issues i fear with pro play and discovering the many weaknesses of many ,many characters as compared to some that i can see becoming seemingly untouchable. and unfortunately i've found that most of the characters that will become very low tier in my opinion are the vets.

    for an example of why:
    in melee you could short hop with any character and do any arial and be almost guarantee'd to connect it (barring a shield or dodge obviously) but with the new engine it can only be done with a limited list of characters... poor poor CF

    to Wi-fi:
    i disagree with you.
    the fox nerf was more of a misunderstanding. everyone assumed that his up kick was nerfed because his up kick wasnt killing at 50% anymore. but they forgot that after you spam a move it reduces the knockback a lot. his kick is still own... if you use it situationally. its not a nerf its a change in the physics engine.
    and yoshi's f smash was always strong. this isnt a buff its a carry over. and egg throw can only be called as much of a third jump as IC and their ice burg thing... n special... sorry dont know what to call it
     
    #17 spiff-ssbb, Mar 24, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2008
  18. ski_big

    ski_big WiiChat Member

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    they nerfed samus so bad its not even funny.. link is rigged if the person knows how to play him
     
  19. mushroomedmario

    mushroomedmario ssb4life

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    that logic isn't really good....

    because if they both have x amount of skill on their respective characters, than they'll be even, otherwise, x wouldn't be measurable

    really the only people that can say if yoshi got buffed or nerfed are people who main yoshi, as he is such a unique character

    and from what i've seen, yoshi mainers are really happy with yoshi, as he's gotton buffed a lot

    although this isn't much, here's a vid of a yoshi beating fox

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b80lv19iSjE

    and a vid of him owning a marth

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3RAbL4NDiY&feature=related
     
    #19 mushroomedmario, Mar 24, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2008
  20. LevesqueIsKing

    LevesqueIsKing An Instant Classic

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    Marioman & Wii-Fi

    No offence, but I didn't bother watching the videos. No one here has said that a Yoshi can't beat a top tier, but that it is harder than it should be, which is unfair.

    Yoshi was significantly hurt by the removal of many advanced technique's in Brawl, he still has no significant recovery, and his double jump has been heavily nerfed. Here are some character ratings from SmashBoards from a reliable source, whom had a team playing Brawl for nearly 3 days straight, carefully examining each and every character (and they're still updating it):
    The thing with Fox is that [similarly to Marth] with everything they nerfed, they also improved another thing. In terms of nerfing Fox, very little was accomplished. This is from the same source:
    I really didn't want to do this, because I didn't want this to turn into a discussion over tier lists [that will go in circles and accomplish nothing]. I am simply using this as evidence, and if you can find a source backing you up you can post it as well.
     
    #20 LevesqueIsKing, Mar 24, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2008

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