Brawl - More or Less Balanced than Melee?

[LeWaffles]

Of course they can be good...for a Yoshi user. And THAT is the point. A Yoshi user with X amount of skill WILL NOT BEAT a Fox user with X amount of skill. In fact, they wouldn't even come close. And no, Yoshi wasn't improved much at all.

And for whoever asked, no, I can't just 'do something else' with Falcon. Its not 'a different playing style', its a style that demands you be significantly better than a Pit player in order to beat them half the time.

I totally disagree, first off it's a well known fact that because of the slow down and because he is weaker, Fox has been Nerfed since Melee. On the other hand Yoshi has gotten much stronger in power, a bit slower (but everyone is slower than in melee) and he has a third jump. His Egg tossing hasn't been as good but its a third jump so its alright. I used to use Yoshi in Melee and I killed my friends and I would win maybe 40-60 against my fairly competitive friend using Fox. Trust me yoshi's smash and the rest of his attacks are much stronger than before.

 

[spiff-ssbb]

it's less balance, buti consider that a good thing. i dont ever wanna see ike lose 2 jigglypuff. -watch out ike....

...what the.... why would you ever WANT less balance?

anyways back to the thread:

i've spent this weekend trying to make captain falcon usable competatively... i've made a FEW advancements... such as timing the knee and the d air (whatever its called) a beat later for grounded opponents... but all in all i agree... poor guy got owned by the floaty short hops and L cancel being... canceled.

i also agree that spacies and marth will remain at the top since mind games for spacies and spacing for marth played a bigger role than the shffl in melee. but i do believe that some new comers will join them in the upper ranks... most namely ike, pit maybe, meta maybe, and toon link. but yes there are some major issues i fear with pro play and discovering the many weaknesses of many ,many characters as compared to some that i can see becoming seemingly untouchable. and unfortunately i've found that most of the characters that will become very low tier in my opinion are the vets.

for an example of why:
in melee you could short hop with any character and do any arial and be almost guarantee'd to connect it (barring a shield or dodge obviously) but with the new engine it can only be done with a limited list of characters... poor poor CF

to Wi-fi:
i disagree with you.
the fox nerf was more of a misunderstanding. everyone assumed that his up kick was nerfed because his up kick wasnt killing at 50% anymore. but they forgot that after you spam a move it reduces the knockback a lot. his kick is still own... if you use it situationally. its not a nerf its a change in the physics engine.
and yoshi's f smash was always strong. this isnt a buff its a carry over. and egg throw can only be called as much of a third jump as IC and their ice burg thing... n special... sorry dont know what to call it

 

[ski_big]

they nerfed samus so bad its not even funny.. link is rigged if the person knows how to play him

 

[mushroomedmario]

Of course they can be good...for a Yoshi user. And THAT is the point. A Yoshi user with X amount of skill WILL NOT BEAT a Fox user with X amount of skill. In fact, they wouldn't even come close. And no, Yoshi wasn't improved much at all.

And for whoever asked, no, I can't just 'do something else' with Falcon. Its not 'a different playing style', its a style that demands you be significantly better than a Pit player in order to beat them half the time.

that logic isn't really good....

because if they both have x amount of skill on their respective characters, than they'll be even, otherwise, x wouldn't be measurable

really the only people that can say if yoshi got buffed or nerfed are people who main yoshi, as he is such a unique character

and from what i've seen, yoshi mainers are really happy with yoshi, as he's gotton buffed a lot

although this isn't much, here's a vid of a yoshi beating fox

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b80lv19iSjE

and a vid of him owning a marth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3RAbL4NDiY&feature=related

 

[LevesqueIsKing]

Marioman & Wii-Fi

No offence, but I didn't bother watching the videos. No one here has said that a Yoshi can't beat a top tier, but that it is harder than it should be, which is unfair.

Yoshi was significantly hurt by the removal of many advanced technique's in Brawl, he still has no significant recovery, and his double jump has been heavily nerfed. Here are some character ratings from SmashBoards from a reliable source, whom had a team playing Brawl for nearly 3 days straight, carefully examining each and every character (and they're still updating it):

Yoshi:
Yoshi. is. (Still.) the. worst. All moves have been nerfed, it seems. Still no recovery. No DJC makes him to slow and easy to kill. Without DI Airdodging, he's a joke.
Edit 1: His double jump has half as many juggernaut frames as melee, however, he can use his UB two times. His Uair, and Bair have no lag on landing, and the Bair does pretty sick damage. The Fsmashes range was decreased, but it will ko at around 110% all in all. +2.0
Edit 2: Bair combos increase the game further. easy to link into smashes for kills. +1.0
Power: 5
Combo ability: 5
Speed: 5
Knockback: 4
Weight: 5
Recovery: 3
Rating: 4/10

The thing with Fox is that [similarly to Marth] with everything they nerfed, they also improved another thing. In terms of nerfing Fox, very little was accomplished. This is from the same source:

Fox:
I'm sick of the **** spacies taking spots on the top tiers of smash. Fox is powerful, and fast. His new blaster does more damage and it's faster. He still has his Dair Shine, even qithout L-canceling. You can still shine people off the edge, over and over. His Usmash is nerfed, but he has Falco's Fsmash from melee. (power included.) His UB got ze nerf a bit, but the sideB is longer. With time, I'm sure he'll be the best in the game. he always is. v_v
Edit 1: God****it. Broken as hell. Nair shining works like crazy. Can combo against walls with ease. triple lasers do decent damage, and he can still gimp like he's getting paid to. +1.5
Power: 7
Combo ability: 8
Speed: 7
Knockback: 8
Weight: 6
Recovery: 7
Rating 8.5/10

I really didn't want to do this, because I didn't want this to turn into a discussion over tier lists [that will go in circles and accomplish nothing]. I am simply using this as evidence, and if you can find a source backing you up you can post it as well.

 

[Minebuster]

If you know how to use people they can be amazing, at least thats what I think.

 

[LevesqueIsKing]

That is not what we are debating here, sorry.

 

[Lugia]

i think you need a fresher source. those posts were made before the english game was even out.

 

[LevesqueIsKing]

Why does it matter if its the English game or not? As I already stated, the basis of the posts were made after 3 days of detailed study of the game, and they're continueing to be edited as new techniques are found.

Note: These are my impressions after long hours of play. I didn't play at a friend's house, I didn't play a demo for 20 minutes over three days. I've 80 hours logged by my crew and myself (Gameclock time) at 9pm Feb 4th.

 

[Dorkfish]

This happens in every game that has a competetive multiplayer community and includes many different types of characters. MMOs (WoW specifically), other fighters, even a few shooters out there have unbalanced gameplay thanks to certain characters being better than others. Its nothing new to see unbalenced gameplay in games.

I think that Brawl is as unbalanced as Melee, it just has more characters to fill the tiers.

 

[Lugia]

he said impressions. maybe these guys just plain sucked balls with yoshi and i sure wouldnt expect them to be all that great with any of the 35 chars when asked on the spot.

oh yea...id like to know when hes spent 80 hours on EVERY SINGLE CHAR.

 

[LevesqueIsKing]

You're going to find something wrong with it if thats what you're looking for. You're convincing yourself rather than looking at the evidence with an open mind.

Don't worry, I disagreed with them once as well. But as I continued playing I realized that this is by far the most in-depth response I've ever seen, and it is exactly right. And don't try to diminish facts, it was a team of people, not some kid that mains Fox and hates Yoshi's guts.

I don't even know why I'm having this debate, I'm done with the tier list thing, you can believe whatever you want.

 

[Dorkfish]

You're going to find something wrong with it if thats what you're looking for. You're convincing yourself rather than looking at the evidence with an open mind.

Don't worry, I disagreed with them once as well. But as I continued playing I realized that this is by far the most in-depth response I've ever seen, and it is exactly right. And don't try to diminish facts, it was a team of people, not some kid that mains Fox and hates Yoshi's guts.

I don't even know why I'm having this debate, I'm done with the tier list thing, you can believe whatever you want.

Who???

 

[mykennedy]

whoa. are you guys talking about a game? or analyzing a piece of literature? im sorry. giving a score to how powerful a character is in a video game is absolutely ridiculous. it isnt at all about all of the characters being balanced or unbalanced. its all about personal preference. i mean really. it seems like the way you want the game is for all of the characters to execute the exact same moves with the exact same amount of strength. but that would make for a boring game. the fact that the characters do have different moves is ALWAYS going to illicit the debate of which is better than which, when it doesnt necessarily exist. i can GUARANTEE that as the game is being developed the creators arent thinking of making one guy better than another. they see a character. develop a move set. and leave it at that. as long as theres differences in games. there will be debate over what is the best way to play. and the answer to that question is however you see fit. so quit crying about a VIDEO GAME. and do like i do. pick random at the character select screen. and have fun. its what the game was made for. not for people to analyze it. for people to have fun

 

[mushroomedmario]

Marioman & Wii-Fi

No offence, but I didn't bother watching the videos. No one here has said that a Yoshi can't beat a top tier, but that it is harder than it should be, which is unfair.

Yoshi was significantly hurt by the removal of many advanced technique's in Brawl, he still has no significant recovery, and his double jump has been heavily nerfed. Here are some character ratings from SmashBoards from a reliable source, whom had a team playing Brawl for nearly 3 days straight, carefully examining each and every character (and they're still updating it):

The thing with Fox is that [similarly to Marth] with everything they nerfed, they also improved another thing. In terms of nerfing Fox, very little was accomplished. This is from the same source:


I really didn't want to do this, because I didn't want this to turn into a discussion over tier lists [that will go in circles and accomplish nothing]. I am simply using this as evidence, and if you can find a source backing you up you can post it as well.

i have read those before....

a)i'm not marioman
b) only people who main yoshi can really judge yoshi, because he has a unique play style to him, and unless you know everything about that playstyle, you can't know if he's good or not. look at the yoshi section of smashboards, they're all praising his buffs, some even questioning if he's high tier

i'd trust those people way more