Does God exist?

[her01771]

@napalm it was not found in a volcano. i was pointing out it hasn't evoled

 

[Napalmbrain]

@napalm it was not found in a volcano. i was pointing out it hasn't evoled

Actually they have- not much, but enough to be classified under a separate genus. Besides, one little fish which hasn't needed to evolve significantly doesn't overturn all the evidence in favour of evolution.

 

[irape4free]

article or link to noahs ark would help but just because its a old old ship doesnt mean much tho inless but i think its funny that everyone thinks all the animals were in walking distance from noahs house.lol im even christain and im sayin this crap lol

 

[The Storm]

@ Turk: Who created the mass to make up God then?

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

@ Turk: Who created the mass to make up God then?

God was already in existence...the fact that any of us are in existence means that there was an original existence--the designer and Creator, God. If you keep going back to who created what, it will go on forever, which is simply unreal by any law.

You can keep asking that question, then who made God? The creator of God. Then who created the creator of the creator of God?, etc, etc. It is an impossibility and makes no sense--I'm into logic and logic alone. And logic tells me that there had to have been an original existence who created everything. His existence does not depend on another's existence, period. The first existence was the creator of all things--he was always there and always will be. Without an original infinite creator, there would be nothing. And since there clearly isn't "nothing", I'm not an atheist =) The fact that there is something--that is, anything created--to me, means that there is an infinite original creator, God.

What say you or anyone else?

 

[Shadow*91]

you say logic tells you there is a god? well logic tells me that there is no such thing.

and you offer the Qur'an as your proof that God caused the big bang. well i refuse to believe a work of fiction. and not just the Qur'an but the Bible and any other rrligious text because those are fiction. Could Jasus really have walked on water? no but the bible presents it as fact. how about the parting of the Red Sea? nope, yet its presented as fact. most(if not all) religious texts have been rewritten to suit the tastes, era, or beliefs of the person rewriting it. now even if the original version of these texts was true, by our current time where the originals are lost, how does one expect to find truth when ten years from now it could be rewritten?

you can't, and thats why religion shouldn't be believed over simple logic and science. science won't rewrite its fundamental laws unless something new is discovered that undoubtably disproves it. logic lets people think clearly and reach conclusions without outside influence. right now Turk, your trying to prove something that by the known laws of man, is not possible. your logic tells you there is a god, because you want to believe in a higher power. you want to believe that there is something watching over us. but everything myself, Storm, and Napalm has said disproves everything you've said. unless humanity discovers a higher power, or god reveals himself to us then logically believing in such is a foolish waste of time.

 

[Napalmbrain]

@ Turk: Who created the mass to make up God then?

God was already in existence...the fact that any of us are in existence means that there was an original existence--the designer and Creator, God. If you keep going back to who created what, it will go on forever, which is simply unreal by any law.

You can keep asking that question, then who made God? The creator of God. Then who created the creator of the creator of God?, etc, etc. It is an impossibility and makes no sense--I'm into logic and logic alone. And logic tells me that there had to have been an original existence who created everything. His existence does not depend on another's existence, period. The first existence was the creator of all things--he was always there and always will be. Without an original infinite creator, there would be nothing. And since there clearly isn't "nothing", I'm not an atheist =) The fact that there is something--that is, anything created--to me, means that there is an infinite original creator, God.

What say you or anyone else?

I say that it's a bit hasty to assume that the only possible explanation for the existence of the Universe is a "First Cause". Maybe the Universe is cyclical, so the end of the Universe causes it to begin again somehow? Maybe the Universe is just one of many in an infinite "multiverse"? Or maybe it's foolish to try to apply our notions of cause and effect when it comes to what happened "before" the Big Bang (time is a property of this Universe just as space is, after all)?

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

@ Turk: Who created the mass to make up God then?

God was already in existence...the fact that any of us are in existence means that there was an original existence--the designer and Creator, God. If you keep going back to who created what, it will go on forever, which is simply unreal by any law.

You can keep asking that question, then who made God? The creator of God. Then who created the creator of the creator of God?, etc, etc. It is an impossibility and makes no sense--I'm into logic and logic alone. And logic tells me that there had to have been an original existence who created everything. His existence does not depend on another's existence, period. The first existence was the creator of all things--he was always there and always will be. Without an original infinite creator, there would be nothing. And since there clearly isn't "nothing", I'm not an atheist =) The fact that there is something--that is, anything created--to me, means that there is an infinite original creator, God.

What say you or anyone else?

I say that it's a bit hasty to assume that the only possible explanation for the existence of the Universe is a "First Cause". Maybe the Universe is cyclical, so the end of the Universe causes it to begin again somehow? Maybe the Universe is just one of many in an infinite "multiverse"? Or maybe it's foolish to try to apply our notions of cause and effect when it comes to what happened "before" the Big Bang (time is a property of this Universe just as space is, after all)?

Well actually I'm not being hasty at all, to me, this is one of the few things that proves God's existence. There ARE scientific answers to "what created the energy that was required for the big bang", whether we know the science behind it or not. But in the end, the only question that can only have one definite answer is this: Was their an original existence?" And that definite answer has to be yes, I explained earlier that if there was not, this world wouldn't be in existence, as, if the opposite were true, there would be nothing. And it's certainly not true that there is nothing, but rather something. And the original thing could not have been created because it's creator would need a creator, and it's creator's creator would need a creator, so on and so forth. This alone proves to me that God exists. There are various signs in nature that only an intelligent designer could have given certain qualities to certain things.

Back to giraffes:

Giraffes have many amazing characteristics. One of these is that their neck stands on 7 vertebrae, just like that of all other mammals, even though it is so long. Another amazing fact about giraffes is that they do not have any problem pumping blood up to their brain on top of their long neck. A little thinking would make one notice how difficult it must be to have the blood pumped so high. But giraffes do not have any problem about this, because their hearts are equipped with features to pump blood as high as necessary. This enables them to carry on with their lives effortlessly.

Yet they still face another problem while they drink water. Essentially, giraffes should have died of high blood pressure every time they bent down to drink water. However, the perfect system in their necks completely eliminates this risk. When they bend down, the valves in their neck vessels are shut down and they prevent excess blood from flowing to the brain.

There is no doubt that the giraffes did not acquire these traits by planning themselves in accordance with their needs. It is even more implausible to say that all these vital features were shaped over time through a gradual and accidental evolutionary process. In order for a giraffe to stay alive, it is vital for it to have a pumping system to transmit blood to the brain and a valve system to prevent high blood pressure the minute it bends down. If any one of these characteristics did not exist or did not function properly, then it would be impossible for the giraffe to go on living.

The conclusion to be derived from all this is that the giraffe species was born into the world with all the characteristics vital for its living already there. It is impossible for a non-existent being to master its body and acquire essential traits consciously. So, the very existence of giraffes unquestionably proves that they are created by a conscious creation, that is by God.

 

[The Storm]

God was already in existence...the fact that any of us are in existence means that there was an original existence--the designer and Creator, God. If you keep going back to who created what, it will go on forever, which is simply unreal by any law.

You can keep asking that question, then who made God? The creator of God. Then who created the creator of the creator of God?, etc, etc. It is an impossibility and makes no sense--I'm into logic and logic alone. And logic tells me that there had to have been an original existence who created everything. His existence does not depend on another's existence, period. The first existence was the creator of all things--he was always there and always will be. Without an original infinite creator, there would be nothing. And since there clearly isn't "nothing", I'm not an atheist =) The fact that there is something--that is, anything created--to me, means that there is an infinite original creator, God.

What say you or anyone else?

I say that it's a bit hasty to assume that the only possible explanation for the existence of the Universe is a "First Cause". Maybe the Universe is cyclical, so the end of the Universe causes it to begin again somehow? Maybe the Universe is just one of many in an infinite "multiverse"? Or maybe it's foolish to try to apply our notions of cause and effect when it comes to what happened "before" the Big Bang (time is a property of this Universe just as space is, after all)?

Well actually I'm not being hasty at all, to me, this is one of the few things that proves God's existence. There ARE scientific answers to "what created the energy that was required for the big bang", whether we know the science behind it or not. But in the end, the only question that can only have one definite answer is this: Was their an original existence?" And that definite answer has to be yes, I explained earlier that if there was not, this world wouldn't be in existence, as, if the opposite were true, there would be nothing. And it's certainly not true that there is nothing, but rather something. And the original thing could not have been created because it's creator would need a creator, and it's creator's creator would need a creator, so on and so forth. This alone proves to me that God exists. There are various signs in nature that only an intelligent designer could have given certain qualities to certain things.

Back to giraffes:

Giraffes have many amazing characteristics. One of these is that their neck stands on 7 vertebrae, just like that of all other mammals, even though it is so long. Another amazing fact about giraffes is that they do not have any problem pumping blood up to their brain on top of their long neck. A little thinking would make one notice how difficult it must be to have the blood pumped so high. But giraffes do not have any problem about this, because their hearts are equipped with features to pump blood as high as necessary. This enables them to carry on with their lives effortlessly.

Yet they still face another problem while they drink water. Essentially, giraffes should have died of high blood pressure every time they bent down to drink water. However, the perfect system in their necks completely eliminates this risk. When they bend down, the valves in their neck vessels are shut down and they prevent excess blood from flowing to the brain.

There is no doubt that the giraffes did not acquire these traits by planning themselves in accordance with their needs. It is even more implausible to say that all these vital features were shaped over time through a gradual and accidental evolutionary process. In order for a giraffe to stay alive, it is vital for it to have a pumping system to transmit blood to the brain and a valve system to prevent high blood pressure the minute it bends down. If any one of these characteristics did not exist or did not function properly, then it would be impossible for the giraffe to go on living.

The conclusion to be derived from all this is that the giraffe species was born into the world with all the characteristics vital for its living already there. It is impossible for a non-existent being to master its body and acquire essential traits consciously. So, the very existence of giraffes unquestionably proves that they are created by a conscious creation, that is by God.

If that aone proves you Gods existence... Then you mustve been born with tunnel vision, bc your missing the rest of the picture. Why you keep going back to this... Im not sure. We cant come up with a logical explantation for something, and what do you do? You say its God's doing. You have absolutely no proof of that. Religion has always been a way to explain things to people and give stability and a sense of security to their lives, bc, think about it... How would the world have reacted or grown over the years with nothing to look up to? Religion has indeed done its job, and i am in no way saying that i would have it abolished or taken away, because i believe religion is neccessary for progress. Its proven useful thus far.

But you cannot sit there and tell me that if something is not one way, then it HAS to be the other. Just because we have no accurate reasoning for the big Bang theory does not prove that God had to make it.

The truth is never black and white, stop staring down the tunnel of ignorance and actually be open to the fact that for once in your life you may actually be wrong.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

Ok.... With that being said.... You still didnt prove me wrong in any way nor have made me think or have any reason to be wrong. Im not sure where your coming from with this, but its ridiculous. lol... Noone believes Heaven is in the sky anymore? You can humor me with this one then Turk, where does God reside? Where is Heaven?

Furthermore, I dont understand where your tying to come from with all these "examples" you keep pulling from your magic hat... This one is by far the most ridiculous. A mother taking her child to the doctor represents what proof of God? It seems like your trying to say the reason we have some foresight is because of God? So the kid knows the needle is going to hurt, what proof of God is that??

Btw, I told you I wasnt insulting you with this, but you seem to like taking personal offense to things, I just thought it was funny that you were copy and pasting from another website. Even if you change the words, there is no point to that... Especially in an arguement. Especially when you tell us that your doing it, your kind of killing all credibility for yourself because your not making any statements yourself. If copy and pasting was a reflection of your true thoughts, then they would let you do that in school and in life, but.... you cant, cuz its called plaguerism.

You keep twisting what I said by leaving out the context in which I said it. With the mother bringing her child to the doctor, I was rebutting the statement you made with the whole "misery" in the planet proving that God DOESN'T exist. I countered that the fact there is indeed torture, illness, disease, harm, natural disasters, oppression, etc., etc...doesn't in any way prove that there is no God (because the argument is that if God existed, he would have to be good, and there is no good in these aforementioned realities). So I was saying that in such situations, there actually IS good to be found, only one may not see it or realize it from where they are standing. So, I was countering that argument, not jumping to God existing through a needle shot. Nice try, you boggled my mind there for a minute and had me saying "wait, what is this kid saying...? Let's take a few steps back.."

Once I have read something, learned from it, and taken from it--it has become my knowledge. I am simply spreading the web site around without saying "look at this web site" because nobody is going to take their time out to click on the link and do exactly as I say (and I don't blame them much, either). There's nothing wrong with posting statements that have been made that I completely agree with. By your interpretation, quoting anything from anyone else--even in quotation marks--in order to aid your cause, is wrong. "Even Einstein said "[insert text] <--you are saying that doing something like this is wrong and shows weakness. It doesn't, your points aren't making any sense. These statements are supportive, and I can see that you are obviously very troubled at the fact that I haven't written them myself. So what? Since when was THAT a crime in a case of debate? When writing a paper, your OWN writing skills count, and putting your OWN effort into it is vital. Copy-pasting is acceptable in a situation of debate--especially online debating through text. Talking it out in person will certainly change the words around, but that's not what we're doing here--we're typing, and we have copy and paste available to us.

 

[The Storm]

O.... K.... With your whole temper tantrum here i almost missed the point... And that arguement was yesterday, but ill humor you. I never said god had to be good, i was simply giving examples that many religions have used to claim his existence. They dont neccessarily have to be bad, so if thats all your acting up about, im not sure why i should even have to respond to that.

And the whole copy and pasting thing... lol... Its kind of ridiculous. I understand that you may agree with what your copying and pasting, but seriously, if i wanted to hear what other people were saying, i would go read their website. I am having this arguement with YOU to discern YOUR reasoning, not theirs. Come up with your own stuff, or its basically forfeiting the arguement for lack of a better point.

And now, your not even arguing with me about gods existence, your just arguing with a few things that i said about how your presenting your evidence. It makes no sense...

Furthermore, my friend, you are very vividly reminding me of one of those bible beaters that i so avidly disgust... Because to those like you, it has to be your way, or no way at all. What is the point of arguing with you? Because I really dont feel like giving in on an arguement that i cant lose... And im surely not going to be put down by your little tidbits about how i dont understand these things, or that im twisting your words. (funny little thing there, if your copy and pasting, then technically, its not Your words im twisting... lol)

So far... You have not proven me wrong at any turn... Neither have you given proof of gods existence, unless its through an assumption. Just because you have no explanation for something that is rational, you have to assume that god did it.

You do know what happens when you assume right? You make an ASS out of U M E.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

I say that it's a bit hasty to assume that the only possible explanation for the existence of the Universe is a "First Cause". Maybe the Universe is cyclical, so the end of the Universe causes it to begin again somehow? Maybe the Universe is just one of many in an infinite "multiverse"? Or maybe it's foolish to try to apply our notions of cause and effect when it comes to what happened "before" the Big Bang (time is a property of this Universe just as space is, after all)?

Well actually I'm not being hasty at all, to me, this is one of the few things that proves God's existence. There ARE scientific answers to "what created the energy that was required for the big bang", whether we know the science behind it or not. But in the end, the only question that can only have one definite answer is this: Was their an original existence?" And that definite answer has to be yes, I explained earlier that if there was not, this world wouldn't be in existence, as, if the opposite were true, there would be nothing. And it's certainly not true that there is nothing, but rather something. And the original thing could not have been created because it's creator would need a creator, and it's creator's creator would need a creator, so on and so forth. This alone proves to me that God exists. There are various signs in nature that only an intelligent designer could have given certain qualities to certain things.

Back to giraffes:

Giraffes have many amazing characteristics. One of these is that their neck stands on 7 vertebrae, just like that of all other mammals, even though it is so long. Another amazing fact about giraffes is that they do not have any problem pumping blood up to their brain on top of their long neck. A little thinking would make one notice how difficult it must be to have the blood pumped so high. But giraffes do not have any problem about this, because their hearts are equipped with features to pump blood as high as necessary. This enables them to carry on with their lives effortlessly.

Yet they still face another problem while they drink water. Essentially, giraffes should have died of high blood pressure every time they bent down to drink water. However, the perfect system in their necks completely eliminates this risk. When they bend down, the valves in their neck vessels are shut down and they prevent excess blood from flowing to the brain.

There is no doubt that the giraffes did not acquire these traits by planning themselves in accordance with their needs. It is even more implausible to say that all these vital features were shaped over time through a gradual and accidental evolutionary process. In order for a giraffe to stay alive, it is vital for it to have a pumping system to transmit blood to the brain and a valve system to prevent high blood pressure the minute it bends down. If any one of these characteristics did not exist or did not function properly, then it would be impossible for the giraffe to go on living.

The conclusion to be derived from all this is that the giraffe species was born into the world with all the characteristics vital for its living already there. It is impossible for a non-existent being to master its body and acquire essential traits consciously. So, the very existence of giraffes unquestionably proves that they are created by a conscious creation, that is by God.

If that aone proves you Gods existence... Then you mustve been born with tunnel vision, bc your missing the rest of the picture. Why you keep going back to this... Im not sure. We cant come up with a logical explantation for something, and what do you do? You say its God's doing. You have absolutely no proof of that. Religion has always been a way to explain things to people and give stability and a sense of security to their lives, bc, think about it... How would the world have reacted or grown over the years with nothing to look up to? Religion has indeed done its job, and i am in no way saying that i would have it abolished or taken away, because i believe religion is neccessary for progress. Its proven useful thus far.

But you cannot sit there and tell me that if something is not one way, then it HAS to be the other. Just because we have no accurate reasoning for the big Bang theory does not prove that God had to make it.

The truth is never black and white, stop staring down the tunnel of ignorance and actually be open to the fact that for once in your life you may actually be wrong.

I am wrong all the time (no human can be right all the time), and when I find out that I am or already know that I'm wrong, I attempt to find out the truth behind what I have misunderstood or wasn't explained to me, or just explained improperly.

With that said, we are dealing with facts here. Lots of your arguments hold no weight simply because they "off". Let me explain: Obviously, either God exists--or He doesn't, it's one or the other. Because I believe that He DOES exist, it is you who I believe is the ignorant one who believes that he is always right. Naturally, you believe the same of me. Why? Because you believe that God DOESN'T exist. It is a given that one of us are ignorant, to which we both believe is not ourselves but rather the other. Because this is a given, and you deliberately stated that I am the ignorant one, it is in fact you who is the arrogant aggressor. Thanks for confirming :wink:

Copy-pasting thing: so i can't use quotations to support my cause? This is a case of debate, we're not writing a paper here...just as you are using scientists who have come up with the Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution, I am using lesser forms of huge scientists to support MY claims. From now on, bring up your own theory of evolution that doesn't match the current one, otherwise you are unoriginal and just ridiculous.

EDIT: WOW you REALLY have to stop exaggerating everything about me, I am in no way having a temper tantrum, I'm actually enjoying our discussion. Anything thats in capital letters is for emphasis purposes ONLY<--like there. If we were speaking this out, you wouldn't have even thought about saying what you did (problem with the internet/text is lack of expression). I accept that you are unwilling to change your opinion. You have done nothing to prove that God DOESN'T exist. You haven't changed your opinion, one bit, and because you haven't conformed to my ways, I will label YOU as stubborn and unworthy of debate. Do you see where I'm going here, how your comments are "off"; they just don't belong and while parts of it are worthy of reading, the rest is in fact YOU being angry and stubborn. We can do a little test--if I can say the same about you as you are saying about me, then your points are useless and completely irrelevant.

 

[The Storm]

I was actually confirming that we are both ignorant in our own right, and there is no point in continuing because we both stand our ground and will not budge for what we believe in. And indeed... This would be different in person.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

I was actually confirming that we are both ignorant in our own right, and there is no point in continuing because we both stand our ground and will not budge for what we believe in. And indeed... This would be different in person.

Yes, in the meantime, I am simply writing out things where I find that God does exist, "how does blah blah blah prove or show in the slightest bit that God exists? If I remember correctly..." and so on and so forth are things that I expected to hear. To me, what I post is proof that God exists, and to you, it is not God, but something else responsible for whatever the case may be. I am simply rebutting your points, yes--in hopes that you will believe that God exists (because a debate is all about presenting points and swaying people to your side), thought not actually expecting that you will change your views any time soon. Just discussing like this is where I get some of my enjoyment.

 

[Napalmbrain]

Well actually I'm not being hasty at all, to me, this is one of the few things that proves God's existence. There ARE scientific answers to "what created the energy that was required for the big bang", whether we know the science behind it or not. But in the end, the only question that can only have one definite answer is this: Was their an original existence?" And that definite answer has to be yes, I explained earlier that if there was not, this world wouldn't be in existence, as, if the opposite were true, there would be nothing. And it's certainly not true that there is nothing, but rather something. And the original thing could not have been created because it's creator would need a creator, and it's creator's creator would need a creator, so on and so forth. This alone proves to me that God exists. There are various signs in nature that only an intelligent designer could have given certain qualities to certain things.

Did you even read my post? I explained how there could be alternatives to an "original existence". In fact, I think I should elaborate on one point I made: What we percieve as the arrow of time- that is, 'cause and effect'- are a result of the laws of physics (in particular the Second Law of Thermodynamics). The laws of physics are a property of our Universe, but there is no reason to assume thiey should apply beyond it. So the concepts of cause and effect as we understand may not even have applied in the time "before" the Big Bang.

Back to giraffes:

Giraffes have many amazing characteristics. One of these is that their neck stands on 7 vertebrae, just like that of all other mammals, even though it is so long. Another amazing fact about giraffes is that they do not have any problem pumping blood up to their brain on top of their long neck. A little thinking would make one notice how difficult it must be to have the blood pumped so high. But giraffes do not have any problem about this, because their hearts are equipped with features to pump blood as high as necessary. This enables them to carry on with their lives effortlessly.

Yet they still face another problem while they drink water. Essentially, giraffes should have died of high blood pressure every time they bent down to drink water. However, the perfect system in their necks completely eliminates this risk. When they bend down, the valves in their neck vessels are shut down and they prevent excess blood from flowing to the brain.

There is no doubt that the giraffes did not acquire these traits by planning themselves in accordance with their needs. It is even more implausible to say that all these vital features were shaped over time through a gradual and accidental evolutionary process. In order for a giraffe to stay alive, it is vital for it to have a pumping system to transmit blood to the brain and a valve system to prevent high blood pressure the minute it bends down. If any one of these characteristics did not exist or did not function properly, then it would be impossible for the giraffe to go on living.

The conclusion to be derived from all this is that the giraffe species was born into the world with all the characteristics vital for its living already there. It is impossible for a non-existent being to master its body and acquire essential traits consciously. So, the very existence of giraffes unquestionably proves that they are created by a conscious creation, that is by God.

Sigh... Turk, you keep repeating the same old intelligent design argument through those long-winded quotes, but intelligent design is not science, it's not testable, and it provides no quantitative measure of "complexity" (what is the exact point where you can say "this is too complex to have evolved"?). Evolution, meanwhile, has long been accepted by the scientific community, including practically every single biologist in the West. Believe it or not, it really does explain all these things you've quoted, like the giraffe's neck or the communal nature of ants.