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The Concept of Pride with Ethnicity/Nationality

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by RPGMasterTurk91, Nov 2, 2009.

  1. RPGMasterTurk91

    RPGMasterTurk91 Turkish RPG Master

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    I'm here to bring up another interesting/controversial topic that could very well turn out as a worthy debate!

    The topic is: The Concept of Pride with Ethnicity/Nationality.

    Allow me to elaborate on this topic:

    Many people are proud to be a certain nationality or nationalities. They are usually taught by their parents along with the society that THEIR nationality is the best in the world, literally superior to all others. Interestingly enough, those other nationalities that are passed off as "inferior" also suffer from the same complex: They too feel that they have THE best lifestyle and laws and especially--history.

    My conclusion to such a matter is that people need to fill their lives with drama and even a sense of superiority--it actually them feel good.

    Lets take the case with Italians in America--many of them feel "historically" or "culturally" superior to others. "Hey cool, I'm Italian! That automatically sets me to a certain level of "coolness" no matter what I do!" is the feel many Italian-Americans get, and it is true that many people want to "be" like them. Nothing against Italians, but most of their popularity in American pop culture comes from Americanized versions of their food as well as Hollywood, which seems to exaggerate every which thing it comes across. Italians don't seem to have a problem with the floating stereotypes because they are generally positive. I want to make it clear that I have nothing against Italians or any nationality for that matter whatsoever. If I did, this whole topic would be contradict anything I say.


    At the same time, it annoys me to no end when people--especially white Americans--do not know or care to know about their background. These are the people who tell you that they are "White American" and who sometimes say "Well I guess English" simply because of the fact that they speak English due to being brought up with it; virtually every such person speaks only English.

    I am 100% Turkish, and am proud of it in the sense that my ancestors have had a glorious, rich history, our food is one of the best cuisines in the world (tied in 3rd with Chinese cuisine), and our people are some of the most hospitable in the world, thanks to the culture. At the same time I am not ashamed to admit any of the mistakes or disgusting faults my ancestors might have had. Anyone who thinks that they can change history to make it sound good because it was "their people" is nothing short of a fool.

    I wrote about this topic after I saw a video on YouTube. The video showed a confused and suspicious crowd in Turkey with no security measures taken (the whole situation was vague). About a dozen people or so crowded around a suspicious looking bag out of curiosity, when it eventually exploded. Turkey has been victim to many bombings and terrorist actions from outside sources such as the PKK and Armenian Terrorist Groups, who all claim to be Freedom Fighters themselves; while they're actions are unjustified, I have come to know that terrorism is overall bred from an injustice done to a group of people, and is certainly not limited to strictly crazy-minded individuals with unclear agendas.

    Ok so basically, I read through the comments of this video, and quickly found one that was obviously from an excited (due to the reality of the occurrence) and very proud Greek, spartanHoplite7:

    "hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha they got what they deserve gay turks stupid apes hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hah kemalgay"

    While this fellow certainly does not represent the though process of all Greeks, it is true that many Greeks have a deep hatred for Turks, rooted in historical conflicts. Please don't give me points on which side is right or wrong, or who has the right to be angry: that's the point of my discussion, this "born hatred" is something people are TAUGHT, and whose side each person stays on is based almost ENTIRELY on what they have been taught--that their own people are innocent and all others guilty of heinous crimes. Anyways, this excited Greek was obviously very entertained at the fact that it was "Turks" who died and fell victims to such an unfortunate event--he enjoyed watching every moment of it and felt no remorse. How a human being can be made into a heartless one is an amazing thing..anyways, for those of you who don't know: his comment attacked the most well-known and loved man in Turkish history, Kemal Ataturk; he referred to all Turks as apes, implying that "his people" were at least human, if not angels. Now without further ado...

    My response was, in all of 500 characters:

    "Looks like your parents taught you everything you know, and they did a damn well job instilling everything they have fun doing into your puny brain. Your pride disgusts me, you have been desensitized to the point where you laugh at an unfortunate event that took place, because it was inflicted on the Turks. IDC if ur Greek--neither you or I are responsible for the history of our respective ancestors and should not be so proud of something that came out of chance and not choice--nationality."


    I have read other comments on various videos and websites; people angrily expressing themselves, labeling people things like:"Serbian dogs", or "Albanian PIGS", "Armenian dogs", "Turkish Pigs/Bastards", "British assholes", "Dam Frenchies", etc., etc....the list goes on and is absolutely not limited to unresolved European conflicts. Take North Korea and South Korea--is it just a coincidence that residents of their respective nations tend to carry an intense hatred for the other, or has society had a profound and very obvious affect on the way the people think and view the world and others including their own people?

    Finally, my main point is that people carry all this pride--it gives them meaning to their lives, people actually ENJOY tension and would stop at nothing to make it so that "their side" is winning (it's a gamble, you're either gonna be miserable, or falsely/temporarily excited). What one's ancestor's did is NOT related to what YOU can do. We've all seen or heard be it on television or in real life of people angrily shouting "YOU killed my people, etc." In reality, that specific group of people did nothing to them, rather it was a historical conflict. Still, both groups are playing the same game and carry a violent hatred towards one another, even though the roots are in historical conflicts--resolved or not.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDgmjL6z2jY[/ame]
     
    #1 RPGMasterTurk91, Nov 2, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2009
  2. Envek

    Envek [I am a title]

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    I'm awesome because I'm hispanic!
    That's an example,no?

    Well, I honestly wouldn't care much about any "side" winning, I'd rather just be friends with every side, which is what I am to this day.

    V lulz,that's funny.
     
    #2 Envek, Nov 2, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
  3. Romer318

    Romer318 WiiChat Member

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    Who are you to say what a certain Nationality of people think about there history? Or the way they feel about other people?

    I think I disagree with almost everything you said.

    Where do you get the fact that "Many" people are taught that they are superior? Do you hang out with a bunch of Nazis?
     
  4. Shadow*91

    Shadow*91 Not Here

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    sort of goes along with this but you ever notice that almost anybody that's white and is full of pride is labeled a racist?

    Brown Pride!, Black Pride!, so on and ao forth, you've all likely heard it before and thought nothing of it, just 'oh he's proud of his heritage' and such.
    but now think; have you ever heard White Pride? likely no, you haven't. i've noticed that when someone even mentions the phrase 'White Pride!' that person gets labeled a racist. they think "White Pride? he must be with th KKK." or something similar.

    now i'm white and i'm quite proud of my heritage. am i racist? no but if i were to say white pride i would instantly be labeled a racist.

    it just shows the double standards of the world. like what RPG said cause of how they were raised. it's a double standard that defines that persons life and attitude towards others.
     
  5. RPGMasterTurk91

    RPGMasterTurk91 Turkish RPG Master

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    I was speaking in general terms, meaning it may not necessarily apply to everyone, but does indeed apply to the majority. I didn't say much about specific tensions between specific groups of people, only touched on it. And yes, it's true, that many people are proud of their nationalities simply through being taught that it is (I'm not saying that this is completely absurd, much of it comes naturally). Many people if you ask them what country is the most beautiful besides the one they're living in now, they will tell you the one their parents are from and believe it with all of their hearts (assuming they live in a melting-pot nation and their direct ties to their families have been cut off and unknown, as is the unfortunate case of many African-Americans).

    Our societies teaches us most of our standards, morals, and acceptable behavior. Ethnocentrism is the concept whereby one believes that their country is the best and that all others are inferior. You might want to look it up, it's very interesting, to say the least. During times of war, ethnocentrism for example becomes very popular and the media tries their hardest to get their audience to hate and love the "right" people, at least according to their agendas.

    I understand where you're coming from, I am white myself. However, labeling one's self with certain prides is more of a status thing. In fact, it makes a distinction of one group to another. It says "even we (insert ethnicity/color) people can offer much to the society and benefit it just as well or better than everyone else". Whites on the other hand are the majority in America, where this occurs the most due to its extremely diverse peoples, and even if whites aren't the majority anymore as some say is or will be the case in the near future, they surely will remain the biggest minority (and nobody will exceed the 50% mark in terms of population in this sense). Brown power, for example, is a motivating phrase and forms a sense of brotherhood that forms a sort of aura of trust among other "members" of the same "color".
     
    #5 RPGMasterTurk91, Nov 2, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
  6. DBloke

    DBloke The last original
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    Im 90% Birtish and 10% Welsh
    But I am losing faith in this what was once called "Great Britain" thanks to all the politicians that have messed it up
     
  7. Napalmbrain

    Napalmbrain WiiChat Member

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    I like Wales, and I guess I have some pride in this country, but ultimately I don't see my ethnicity/nationality as that big of a deal.
     
  8. RPGMasterTurk91

    RPGMasterTurk91 Turkish RPG Master

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    Being proud isn't a bad thing, but when it comes to the point when if that person was asked "who are the most innovative people in the world" or most intelligent, most "good", etc., they would respond their people from their specific country or the one they feel closest to, if they're a mut.
     
  9. FinalFantasyVII

    FinalFantasyVII WiiChat Member

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    Being too proud of something you didn't work for one bit is meaningless, really. I have to agree with your wonderful insight yet again, Turk!
     
  10. Athronox

    Athronox WiiChat Member

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    This is a pretty tl;dr thread, so I'm going to base a response mostly off the first few sentences and the thread title...

    No, I don't think a lot of people are taught by their parents about their nationality. Especially in America. Unless it's an Italian or Irish American or smaller minority of the like, there really isn't any "pride" to be found here, not even American pride, people never hearken back to their roots anymore, they just kind of....Exist. And it's a mediocre excuse for existence.

    Pride for one's ethnic roots is something which has been a very useful tool throughout the ages. It has allowed people to deal with hardship by seeking strength or wisdom in their people of old, it gives people a sense of worth in troubled times, it lets people feel like they are complete and have a place in the world, but most importantly, it gives people a reason to want to fight for what they believe in. As an example of what I mean, take the British. Back in the days when the French and the Brits were battling it out, many of the battles were pretty close calls, fueled only by intuition and devotion on the part of the armies. Now, if those same soldiers didn't "care" about their roots, and their place of origin, and didn't really think they were representing their people on the battle field, they wouldn't be fighting at all, most likely.

    In short, ancestry gives people a reason for existence.

    Me, I'm English. I was born in America, my parents never really told me about my ancestral roots (until I asked, and did some ancestral searching), and I've never even set foot on the isles. Yet, I still consider myself more English than American. I always have, I always will. Because, ever since I was a little boy, I've engrossed myself in the English culture. I make English food, I read English books, all my ancestors were English, etc. I just love my people and their many vast accomplishments. I wouldn't want to be anyone else.

    Now I can tell you, if I did not have that kind of solidification of my true self, if I didn't have my own little origins and niche with which to allign myself, I'd feel kind of like an empty person. I'd feel like I didn't really have a purpose and that I didn't really "fit in". However, I am one of the lucky people who is proud of their heritage, and it's a great thing to be.
     
  11. Monsteroids

    Monsteroids Psychedelic Snail

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    Ugh... Nationalism and Traditionalism bothers me to no end. I have some 'pride' in my Finnish(Moomintroll is something I could sink into all day) and British(grandad was a Brit philosopher) heritage and don't generally think much of my Irish heritage. I don't let that influence my judgment of others or myself. People have told me I'm like my grandad and that does feel nice as he was a good guy imo, but what I do can be similar to his habits or mannerisms, but they can't be attributed to him. I can't get much strength from the blood relation.

    Real strength comes from self-identification, self-love, and understanding the weight of your own actions/interest/qualities and the fact that they can only be attributed to you. I can't get gratification from what someone else of 'my race' did because I simply am incapable of making the connection.

    To justify your more questionable actions as for your people, you're not thinking about how much scrutiny individuals of your race (who will not agree at all with your sentiments) will be subject to. That's yet another ugly point right there.

    I do not enjoy such tension. Playful competition? Yes. Horrible hate-derived tension? No.
    I also generally take the telly a bit too seriously when it comes to issues like that and prod at it relentlessly.

    I wonder though. This particular Greek individual seemed incredibly desensitized. As in, unnaturally so. I wonder if it can really just be attributed to his parentage. I also wonder if he had seen the real event take place he would have reacted differently. Maybe, maybe not.

    Again, Turk. I generally agree with you here.

    P.S. Also... ya kinda overdid the dashes or maybe I'm just that horrible with my native tongue. Goodbye sweet writing career I was hoping for.
     
    #11 Monsteroids, Nov 15, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2009
  12. RPGMasterTurk91

    RPGMasterTurk91 Turkish RPG Master

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    Hey thanks for your comment!

    I don't recall making it too clear that many Americans are taught about their nationalities, because it's true that many are not--many people go on with life and use "nationality" once in a while to get some meaning or fun out of it. Not to mention, many blacks in America don't know their lineage simply due to it being cut off at a certain point in time. But basically, lots of people do not care much for nationalities and when you ask them, they simply tell you "white American" (it's doesn't take long to realize that many Asians are familiar with their nationalities and are much associated thanks to parenting with their culture and heritage), because they know no better. And if they HAVE to say one, it becomes "English" because again, they know no better and "they guess their English" just because it's the language they speak and that the original western civilization starters here were the British.

    I agree with you that being "proud" of one's nationality(ies) gives people a sense of meaning to their otherwise rather meaningless lives. The pride that I was talking about really applies to people who are significantly attached to their heritages. The Colombians who tell you that the best beaches are in Colombia and refuse to believe that Colombia has the highest murder rate in the world, or the Russians who truly believe that Russia is the greatest country in the world and that everyone is under the mercy of "Mother Russia", and that they have the best military in the world, etc. They are blind followers with closed minds and a provoked bias. So, I was making the point of pride when it comes to one's heritage altogether.

    At the same time, it bothers me when my American peers don't even know or care about what nationality(ies) they are, as they are too busy tending to other "needs". When it comes to being American and ethnocentrism kicks in, many of these people are proud. Those who aren't so proud about being anything are rare and almost always lead lives that simply satisfy their desires. That is, a very routine one where religion also plays little to no role in it, and one just eats, sleeps, defecates, and takes care of their "fun factor".

    Well anyways, I found this video of one of the best and modern comedians I have ever heard, George Carlin, who is extremely realistic in most of his views. He does a GREAT job explaining this concept and makes for a grand comedian.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDgmjL6z2jY[/ame]
     
  13. navarre

    navarre Proud Protestant

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    I am incredibly proud of my British heritage. I love the intriguing history. I love the stunningly beautiful countryside and coastline this country has. I love the freedoms and ideals that come with this country. I love the often mocked weather (never too hot, never too cold, no droughts or natural disaster in living memory). Britain was, is, and always shall be my home.

    That said, I am not in any way proud of my race. Being white is of no importance to me, I'd be the exact same if I were black- for example, my girlfriend is black, my mates are predominantly black, my church is around 60% black and my music taste is stereotypically black. How anyone could be proud of their skin tone is beyond my comprehension.
     
  14. Athronox

    Athronox WiiChat Member

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    And they say all Brits are racists. Oh how I do love stereotypes...

    Well said ma'friend. You are quite right. One should be proud of their origins, not of their skin tone. However, there is something you must realize. I think the reason so many people confuse pride associated with skin tone and pride associated with nationality is partially because, people from a certain area look a certain way, and now that we live in an America-dominated world (unfortunately), people who live in America and places related to America no longer associate with their ancestral origins, instead, they associate with the only thing they actually know, which is, they either have "black, brown, yellow, red, or white skin", and thus, they associate with it.

    For example, I use to know a girl who was half puerto rican, one fourth irish, and one fourth turkish. Now, genetically, she is only a fraction "white", but because she got a certain combination of genes, she came out with brown hair, blue eyes, and white skin. So, she self-identified as white, and everyone off the street knew she was white too.

    Essentially, my point is, people claim they have pride in their skin color because in most circumstances, it is the only thing they have as an identifier. People like you and me, who have strong ancestral roots and know of them, we harken back to our country, not the way we look. Those who can't however, that's their fall-back plan.
     
  15. RPGMasterTurk91

    RPGMasterTurk91 Turkish RPG Master

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    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it."
    --Mark Twain

    Just like how George Carlin put it, one can be "happy" to be part of the "British system". If I was British and lived in the UK, I might be happy too--however, I wouldn't be picky when it comes to the history, acknowledging the many wrongs that have been done in order to expand an imperialistic empire. Most people are honestly discontent with their government, even in America, we are so split, and many people don't get what they "want", and are dissatisfied with the politics here. There's always a struggle (little do we people know in the west that we are ACTUALLY being PAMPERED thanks to exploiting peoples and their resources of poorer nations).

    What I got out of your passage was that you are happy with your standing as of right now; as of you being British, you did absolutely nothing to your ancestor's history, but more importantly, to be born into a British household, family, lifestyle, etc. (don't take it the wrong way, I'm making a point and not belitting you in any way).
     
  16. PrinceLink

    PrinceLink Solid Snake, Olimar

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    Holy f@#$#@ guys. Take a breather. I mean I will read a few long posts but if everyone has a freaken 5 paragraph essay full of crap it kinda is distracting!

    Just summarize k! Or some how make the important things bold.

    First off what's the discussion about exactly? There is no question to discuss..

    I have no idea why but I feel like flaming and bashing you SOOOOOO HARD. I mean SO HARD. I don't know what made me mad but I feel like driving a bat into your head. No joke.

    Idk but I'm sorry it's just that once you study enough world history and US history you white @#$@#s really messed the world up.

    I know your only proud of the "good" stuff they did but hey. If your going to say you love something, your going to have to love all of it. And there is not a enough good to make up for all the bad. EG. If your only proud of the good things your white ancestors did that that's stupid. You either are proud of everything or not. You should say something like I'm proud of all the accomplishments but pretty ashamed at what else they did.

    Short, to the point, and well written. Follow this man and you will go far.
     
    #16 PrinceLink, Nov 15, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2009
  17. RPGMasterTurk91

    RPGMasterTurk91 Turkish RPG Master

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    The passages we are writing are nothing compared to hundreds of pages in a book. I know you like to see things very simple and clear, but a message isn't always conveyed in such a manner. If I were to skip to the words you wrote in caps, alls I would read is "SOOOOOOO HARD" and "SO HARD". You're rather horny for the wrong reasons, if you ask me.

    This topic is about discussion, so people can make their passages as long as they need to make them in order to get the point across in the most proper and accurate manner (kind of like I'm doing now).

    And it's not true that if you're gonna like one aspect of something, you should go all the way. I can see where you're coming from when you're irritated about someone being "proud to be white". Because what it sounds like is "we're white and better than everyone else, so we will oppress all others by means of strict imperialism and overall racism", and WHITES are the MAJORITY in these countries. But you went way overboard in your violent (I mean, horny of course) approach. All other ethnic groups have a right to say it because they are the "under-appreciated minority" isn't that right?
     
  18. Athronox

    Athronox WiiChat Member

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    Lmfao. Ownt.
     
  19. RPGMasterTurk91

    RPGMasterTurk91 Turkish RPG Master

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    lol do you mean that this statement I made?

    "If I were to skip to the words you wrote in caps, alls I would read is "SOOOOOOO HARD" and "SO HARD". You're rather horny for the wrong reasons, if you ask me."

    Or no?
     
  20. PrinceLink

    PrinceLink Solid Snake, Olimar

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    No mate your head is just in the gutter.

    IDK. I guess I get mad when people say "I'm proud that I'm white" because what are they to be proud of? Sure alright your race has done some cool stuff but they have also done the most dimmest of things ever.

    I'm just saying I think I would have more respect to people who say- I'm proud to be a Jew or Black because they can lose something for saying it.

    I mean you can say your proud of being white as much as you want but you will lose nothing or gain nothing. If you are a hated minority and come out and say your proud to be it then well you prove yourself brave.

    EG. I would get pissed to see a bumper sticker in America that said "Proud to be Christian" because its just stupid. BUT I would like to see it in Iran then I would think "He that guy has some balls and is brave enough to say what he thinks!!! Respect earned dude! O knows he just got shot"
     

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